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post #231 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Actually, Intel has incrementially changed the P6 architecture (Pentium Pro) into what became Conroe, then Penryn, etc.

Pentium Pro
Pentium II/III
Pentium III Coppermine (I believe that was the actual change, the original Pentium III was a Pentium II with SSE support...literally)
Pentium M
Core
Core 2
Core i7

That's not to say that you could still find actual circuitry from a Pentium III/Pro in a Ivy Bridge, but you can clearly trace the evolution over time. The only truly new architecture Intel made recently was Netburst iirc, even the Atom and Larrabee were based off the P5 iirc.

They're not the same architectures..... You pull up any tide shot for Core 2 to Nehealm and they're completely different to the Pentium 3.

Stop confusing design principles and philosophies with straight up copying.
post #232 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by almighty15 View Post

They're not the same architectures..... You pull up any tide shot for Core 2 to Nehealm and they're completely different to the Pentium 3.

Stop confusing design principles and philosophies with straight up copying.

"Intel marketing states that Core is a blend of P-M techniques and NetBurst architecture. However, Core is clearly a descendant of the Pentium Pro, or the P6 architecture. It is very hard to find anything "Pentium 4" or "NetBurst" in the Core architecture. While talking to Jack Doweck, it became clear that only the prefetching was inspired by experiences with the Pentium 4. Everything else is an evolution of "Yonah" (Core Duo), which was itself an improvement of Dothan and Banias. Those CPUs inherited the bus of the Pentium 4, but are still clearly children of the hugely successful P6 architecture. In a sense, you could call Core the "P8" architecture, with Banias/Dothan being based on the "P7" architecture. (Note that the architecture of Banias/Dothan was never given an official name, so we will refer to it as "P-M" for simplicity's sake.)

Of course this doesn't mean that Intel's engineers just bolted a few functional units and a few decoders on Yonah and called it a day. Jack told us that Woodcrest/Conroe/Merom are indeed based on Yonah, but that almost 80% of both the architecture and circuit design had to be redone."


Core 2 is indeed based off the P6/Pentium Pro, just because there would probably be much less than 5% of the previous architecture and circuitry doesn't mean you can't trace it back to the P6...After all, you could trace a Phenom II x6 right back to the original Athlon launched in 1999 too with the right know-how or even just looking at the product launches. (eg. Athlon > Athlon Thunderbird > Athlon XP are all minor changes, then AMD adjusted it into the Athlon64, added the crossbar and a second core for the x2 and did a bunch of other stuff I can't be bothered remembering for K10/K10.5)
    
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post #233 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

"Intel marketing states that Core is a blend of P-M techniques and NetBurst architecture. However, Core is clearly a descendant of the Pentium Pro, or the P6 architecture. It is very hard to find anything "Pentium 4" or "NetBurst" in the Core architecture. While talking to Jack Doweck, it became clear that only the prefetching was inspired by experiences with the Pentium 4. Everything else is an evolution of "Yonah" (Core Duo), which was itself an improvement of Dothan and Banias. Those CPUs inherited the bus of the Pentium 4, but are still clearly children of the hugely successful P6 architecture. In a sense, you could call Core the "P8" architecture, with Banias/Dothan being based on the "P7" architecture. (Note that the architecture of Banias/Dothan was never given an official name, so we will refer to it as "P-M" for simplicity's sake.)

Of course this doesn't mean that Intel's engineers just bolted a few functional units and a few decoders on Yonah and called it a day. Jack told us that Woodcrest/Conroe/Merom are indeed based on Yonah, but that almost 80% of both the architecture and circuit design had to be redone."


Core 2 is indeed based off the P6/Pentium Pro, just because there would probably be much less than 5% of the previous architecture and circuitry doesn't mean you can't trace it back to the P6...After all, you could trace a Phenom II x6 right back to the original Athlon launched in 1999 too with the right know-how or even just looking at the product launches. (eg. Athlon > Athlon Thunderbird > Athlon XP are all minor changes, then AMD adjusted it into the Athlon64, added the crossbar and a second core for the x2 and did a bunch of other stuff I can't be bothered remembering for K10/K10.5)

It's a new architecture..... Everything in the PC world is always based on or an evolution of something else.

That does not mean that it's not new.

I can quote stuff too..
Quote:
Basing on the requirements we have just listed above, Intel engineers decided to give up NetBurst (which is actually not surprising at all) in favor of mobile processors microarchitecture, because these processors, developed from Pentium Pro, Pentium II and Pentium III boast relatively high performance level and are very economical in terms of power. However, the new Core microarchitecture has been significantly improved and enhanced in order to deliver higher performance, wider range of features and lower power consumption. As a result, it would be absolutely incorrect to claim that the prospective processors will be none other but adapted (for the new applications field) Pentium M.

Some car engines use things and designs from much much older engines.... Doesn't make them any less of a new engine and design...
post #234 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by almighty15 View Post

It's a new architecture..... Everything in the PC world is always based on or an evolution of something else.

That does not mean that it's not new.

I can quote stuff too..
Some car engines use things and designs from much much older engines.... Doesn't make them any less of a new engine and design...

Your quote only proves my point further: "these processors, developed from Pentium Pro, Pentium II and Pentium III...the prospective processors will be none other but adapted (for the new applications field) Pentium M."

Pentium Pro gets developed into the Pentium II which gets developed into the Pentium III which gets developed into the Pentium M which gets developed into the Core which gets developed into Core 2 which gets developed into Core i7, I never said it's not new, but it is a souped up and evolved Pentium Pro when it really gets down to it...Just like how a Phenom II is a souped up and evolved Athlon Classic, or the 80186 was a souped up and evolved 8080.
It's not a new architecture, the last completely new architecture Intel made for general release was Netburst, there's obviously others (iirc that 80 core CPU is a custom architecture/microarchitecture) but for the most part you can trace the evolution of their processors from the Pentium Pro to the Core i7 3570k. Am I saying it's not a new CPU? Not in the slightest, but it certainly isn't a new architecture on the level of Willamette, or the Athlon. (Both of which were started from scratch iirc.)
    
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post #235 of 338
C'mon man. Nehalem is a whole new architecture. First of all it differs radically. No FSB which is what the Core architecture is based on (PenM + NetBurst FSB)
However IT'S WRONG TO SAY IT'S RECYCLED.
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post #236 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post

C'mon man. Nehalem is a whole new architecture. First of all it differs radically. No FSB which is what the Core architecture is based on (PenM + NetBurst FSB)
However IT'S WRONG TO SAY IT'S RECYCLED.

I'm just going to ignore him, he clearly lacks basic understanding skills.....
post #237 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post

C'mon man. Nehalem is a whole new architecture. First of all it differs radically. No FSB which is what the Core architecture is based on (PenM + NetBurst FSB)
However IT'S WRONG TO SAY IT'S RECYCLED.

The Athlon64 was still a souped up Athlon XP despite having 64bit, no EV6 bus, an IMC, etc.
SB is still based off Nehalem despite actually being an APU. (The Nehalem chips with an iGPU had the IMC and iGPU on a separate, 45nm die to the actual 32nm CPU)
Llano is still Stars/K10 based despite being an APU while none of the other CPUs are, and having PCIe lanes on board.
Trinity/Richland are still Bulldozer based despite being APUs with onboard PCIe lanes.

If you read Nehalem architecture analysis it's pretty clear it's Intel further incorporating the good ideas from Netburst into the more efficient architecture and just extending it elsewhere at the same time, iirc even the Front-End and execution engines were unchanged from Penryn. I suggest you read this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by almighty15 View Post

I'm just going to ignore him, he clearly lacks basic understanding skills.....

8080: Improved into 8085 and Zilog Z80 while retaining same basic architecture, 8085 gets improved into the 16bit 8086/8088 (8088 using 8bit support chips on the motherboard) which are then improved into the 80186/80188. (They put more of the support chips on the CPU)
80386: Intel designed this, then the 286 as the 386 was too difficult to manufacture at the time. The base i386 architecture, also the first real 32bit CPU.
80486: Drastically improved, put the FPU (Used to be a separate *87 chip) on the CPU, added 8Kb cache (iirc) and also added the multipliers we know and love on our CPUs today. Also known as the i486 in gcc.
Pentium: Drastically improved 486, now it talks to the rest of the motherboard via a 64bit GTL+ bus, added pipelines and was the first super-scalar x86 CPU. Known as the i586 in gcc.
Pentium Pro: Intels first CPU to use decoding, in that it used another microarchitecture internally and just translated x86 to and forth to keep compatibility. Also known as P6 or the i686 architecture in gcc. This is what the Pentium II, (A Pentium Pro with external cache and a new process node) Pentium III (Pentium II with SSE..Then some massive improvements) and the Pentium M were based off of.
Netburst: Long pipelines, abandoned after the Pentium D.
Then as you can see in the link I posted before as well as your quote, Conroe was based off of the Pentium M's architecture (At least 20% of it was kept) which was then improved and shrunk into Penryn, Intel then improved that into Nehalem, shrunk it to Westmere, improved that to Sandy Bridge, shrunk that to Ivy Bridge, etc.

Exactly as I said, you can clearly see the evolution from Pentium Pro to Core i7...So whose lacking the basic understanding skills? I've provided proof of the Dothan to Conroe change and now of Penryn to Nehalem, (Look up) you've provided one quote that proves what I said. (That Conroe was based off of Dothan)

Let me provide that quote again: "As a result, it would be absolutely incorrect to claim that the prospective processors will be none other but adapted (for the new applications field) Pentium M."
It's an adapted Pentium M, which is an adapted Pentium III, which is an improved Pentium II, which is an improved/adapted Pentium Pro.
    
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post #238 of 338
You look like such a utter knob now.
Quote:
Intel has incrementially changed the P6 architecture
This is what you said then. Nehalem to everyone's eyes is a whole new architecture
I mean just take a look dude, i find it hard to understand how "incrementally changed" nehalem has become.

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post #239 of 338
Yes, because you can clearly see all of the circuitry and make it all out from pictures like that. I've provided proof in that link I posted, read up on the architecture before you reply again.
Let me quote the relevant bits so you can just search and see they are indeed in there:

"Conroe was the first Intel processor to introduce this 4-issue front end."

"Intel introduced macro-ops fusion in Conroe, a feature where two coupled x86 instructions could be “fused” and treated as one. They would decode, execute and retire as a single instruction instead of two, effectively widening the hardware in certain situations. Nehalem added additional instructions that could be fused together, in addition to all of the cases supported in existing Core 2 chips"

"Core 2 featured a Loop Stream Detector (LSD)...In Nehalem, the LSD is moved behind the decoder and now caches decoded micro-ops. "

"The execution engine of Nehalem is largely unchanged from Penryn; just like the front end was already wide enough, so was the execution end of the architecture"

"Nehalem may not be any wider than Conroe/Penryn, but it should make better usage of its architecture than any of its predecessors."

"the architectures that Nehalem was derived from didn’t have HT either." (Which other architecture could it be than P6/Pentium M?)

"Turbo Mode This last feature Intel actually introduced with mobile Penryn."

It's pretty clear Intel worked on making Penryn/Conroe wider, and improved its weaknesses drastically.

Also, I can post die-shots too
Here's the Athlon XP:
JhWjhR6.jpg
And the Athlon64:
Zz6Nurg.jpg

Despite sharing the same basic architecture, they look nearly nothing alike...And once again, the Athlon64 was based off the K7 CPUs, but switched from the EV6 bus protocol to HTT, (Which AMD still use) added an IMC and also added 64bit processing. There's a reason that type of stuff is called the "Uncore" on Intel, the architecture has nothing to do with it at all...What's in the cores, how they work, etc is what I'm talking about.
    
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post #240 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

It has been this way for a long while actually. People addicted to synthetic benchmark results will tell you otherwise, and then proceed to cherry pick results to bolster their stance.

Right now, with rare exception, people can literally buy the lowest cost offering on the higher end of Intel or AMD and be perfectly fine and happy. If I had to give a "edge" to one side, I would say AMD, as AMD is sticking with their current socket for a few more years. Intel has gone to 1150, from 1155, anyone that wants to upgrade to Hawell needs a new board.

The edge to amd? Are you out of your mind? A 109 dollar extreme 4 could max out a 3770k on air and water but that's too much of an expense? While amd recycles chipsets intel improves and gives you new features. It boggles my mind at the mindset of some members on this forum.

Also expect a healthy price cut on the 8350 and 8320 in june because the 4670K is going to blow it out of the water.
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Core I7 5960X
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core I7 5960X ASRock X99 OC Formula MSI GTX 970 Gaming MSI GTX 970 Gaming 
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
G. Skill 16GB DDR4 2600 Sandisk Extreme II 240GB SSD Custom 480 Water Setup Windows 10 
PowerCase
AX1500I Corsair 900D 
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Overclock.net › Forums › General Hardware › General Processor Discussions › [Linus] FX8350 OC vs i5 3570K OC benched