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[Linus] FX8350 OC vs i5 3570K OC benched - Page 34  

post #331 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenge View Post

I guess it's a "pleasure" to recycle motherboards since AMD hasn't seen fit to even include native PCIe 3.0 support on their boards and probably won't for 2+ years, right? At least Intel has actual innovations on their new boards. Then again, AMD doesn't have the money to pay their engineers to design competitive CPUs, let alone chipsets.
Congratulations on being located next to a hydroelectric dam. And I'm sure that you're not ignoring the additional incremental cost in getting a power supply that's at least 100w higher that you'd otherwise get for a similarly-overclocked i5/i7, right?

Then again, looking at your sig rig I noticed you're using an 850w PSU for just an 8320 and a single 7970. So I guess you already overpaid for your PSU as it is. Way to go.
By the way, in the real world Youtube isn't a valid primary source. These days making a slanted video on the internet is so easy, even an AMD fanboy can do it.
You just completely ignored the argument on cost of ownership, injected opinions and then personal attacks and then called me a fanboy. Please notice that I didn't insult either company or praise one over the other, you did. Yet I am the fanboy.

Nice.

You seem really upset that I bought my power supply on sale in 2009. I like buying quality parts once. Your opinion of overspending is up for scrutiny. I've used the same power supply for 3 builds and I am going to use it again. Why would I want to buy a motherboard I don't need? Isn't that overspending?
Edited by S.M. - 3/26/13 at 8:29pm
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post #332 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by S.M. View Post

I have debunked that myth over and over again and even responded to one of your posts, and there are several videos on youtube debunking that myth.

Why do you refuse to read information you don't like?

Your definition of 'quickly adding up' would take 2 years of 24/7 folding to break even in costs. I also get the pleasure of using the same motherboard for 3 CPUs. A cost difference that would take over 10 years 24/7 folding to break even.

Power is 8c per KILOWATT HOUR where I live.

Perspective: You would save MORE money exchanging one incandescent light-bulb to halogen.
Perspective: You would save MORE money removing your phone charger from the wall when not charging.

You haven't debunked anything, especially from a fanboy/shill fueled youtube video. Instead of wasting my time explaining everything at my specific address ill just paste this example from someone who has done the math at their house to show that in some cases, you would have to be an absolute moron to buy the 8350 over even the 3770k. 8c kWh is very cheap btw.

This is from idontcare, a knowledgeable moderator on the Anandtech forums who has owned both of these processors:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontcare 
Power consumption is part of TCO. It doesn't take too many years of usage before a 100W delta in power usage blows your TCO-justified pro-AMD budget position.

Where I live I pay $0.13/kWHr, but it is air-conditioned. So every watt of extra power and heat dissipated into the air inside my house is yet another watt of heat that must be removed by the heat pump, which is about a 1W to 1W efficiency deal.

So that extra 100W power delta from my 8350 at the wall translates into roughly an extra 200W of power I am paying for on my utility bill.

Now if I conservatively estimate my loading usage at a mere 8hrs per day (my apps of interest actually run 24/7 full load), then the TCO for my 8350 rig requires accounting for the additional $75/year power-bill footprint.

Or I could buy a 3770k (as I did), lower my power footprint by 200W (accounting for the lessened AC overhead), and get higher performance to boot, in exchange for paying out an extra $130 up front. The TCO here is heavily in favor of the 3770k if I plan to use the computer for 2yrs or more.

The only time you can make a TCO-justified argument that measures up to being in favor of the less expensive but higher power consuming AMD processors is when the usage scenarios are crafted to heavily favor long idle periods where the computer is essentially going unused.

And if that is the expected usage scenario, that you are going to buy a 4GHz 8-core computer only to have it sit idle 95% of the day then one really should be questioning the need for the computer purchase in the first place at that point because your TCO would be much more in favor of getting something used on craigslist then.
post #333 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derp View Post

You haven't debunked anything, especially from a fanboy/shill fueled youtube video. Instead of wasting my time explaining everything at my specific address ill just paste this example from someone who has done the math at their house to show that in some cases, you would have to be an absolute moron to buy the 8350 over even the 3770k. 8c kWh is very cheap btw.

This is from idontcare, a knowledgeable moderator on the Anandtech forums who has owned both of these processors:

teaching.gif
    
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post #334 of 338
I don't about either of you BUT where i live AS I SAID it's highly impossible to do more than 4.6GHz without hitting 90C on air.
Doesn't matter how big your heatsink is, air density here is very low and ambient temps are high
If you decide to calculate how much it cost EXTRA per year i'll present it to you, here we normally DON'T USE AC because darn electricity bills are expensive.
And if he says 200Whr that he adds up it would be like this,
200W x 8 x 365, that's 584000 or 584kW
584 * 0.13 = 75$. He's right in a sense but does everyone use AC 24/7? NOT!
There's only precisely 60W of difference in both platforms between 3770k and 8350 and it would do you better to just turn off a floro more frequently, why?
60W difference is at 100% load. DOES EVERYONE PEG THEIR PROCESSOR AT 100% for 8 hours?! No. That was his own opinion. Everyone should have theirs and what you guys are doing is being all gooey-eyed over the "obvious cost savings" and denying people's choice of processors

And unless you're being ridiculous and pegging your CPU to 100% in games by playing 1280x720 i don't understand. A common setup with a 8350 will be with a HD7870 so you will be GPU-bound before you're CPU bound unless the 8350 is truly unbelievably so slow that it's IPC is Pentium 4 levels

As i said before i don't support AMD CPUs nor do i support Intel CPUs i just want to tell people, CHOOSE YOUR PROC OF CHOICE GODDAMNIT
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post #335 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derp View Post

You haven't debunked anything, especially from a fanboy/shill fueled youtube video. Instead of wasting my time explaining everything at my specific address ill just paste this example from someone who has done the math at their house to show that in some cases, you would have to be an absolute moron to buy the 8350 over even the 3770k. 8c kWh is very cheap btw.

This is from idontcare, a knowledgeable moderator on the Anandtech forums who has owned both of these processors:
That's the exact quote I used the other day, stating 2 years to break even. Even though it is incorrect. If you read the rest of that thread you will see what I mean. Idontcare states that his AC unit was retrofitted into an old house and his venting is inefficient.

A CPU doesn't dissipate at a rate of 1:1 because it's not a resistor. Also air conditioners do not cool at a rate of 1 Watt to 1 Watt efficiency. (Thank god they don't)

Air conditioners, when converted to watts, operate at about a 4:1 efficiency (assuming an average household ~50,000 BTU central air conditioner) His math is also excluding outside temperature and humidity as factors which is what air conditioners are constantly fighting against. For instance, if the temperature outside is 10 degrees higher than what your AC is set to, that is the theoretical equivalent to constantly combating 14,622 watts x 10. (Assuming the air conditioner is set to it's highest setting)

100 Watts doesn't make a dent on 146,620 Watts.

Number breakdown

1 Watt-hour = 3.41 BTU
100 Watt-hours = 341 BTU
50,000 BTU = 14,622 Watts PER DEGREE FAHRENHEIT
average central air conditioner = 3,500 Watts

Energy consumption cost breakdown. Keep in mind these are absolute worst case scenario in terms of usage. Average usage is far from 100% load.

average cost per kWh in U.S. = 12.5 cents
cost per Watt-hour = 0.0125 cents
power consumption difference between chips = 100 Watts
100 Watt-hours = 1.25 cents
average power-on-hours = 10
average cost difference daily = 12.5 cents
average cost difference annual = $45.5

I'd break down the cost of 100 Watt-hours on air conditioning but it literally doesn't make a dent. It's so insignificant.

It's a couple dollars annually; I don't know the exact number because I don't know nor do I want to factor in average humidity, temperature and preferred AC temperature. But it's a few dollars annually. Also another factor is household floor plan. Having all of your heat generated in one room is different than heat being generated evenly throughout the house. Also some households have more than one air conditioner, which is even more efficient. You also have to factor in how many Watts of heat the CPU actually dissipates (for intel it's about 1:3) and then factor in the cubic feet volume of ambient air effected by the CPU's heat, and how many Watt-hours is required to raise that volume by one degree Fahrenheit. You ALSO have to factor in insulation, for both its gains and its losses.

So, it would take 2 years to break even worst case scenario, around 4 years average use. You would save more money changing an incandescent light-bulb to halogen.
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post #336 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by lacrossewacker View Post

then Intel will increase the core count and AMD will have to have double the cores to keep up

Sounds like a fanboy statement, but 8 AMD cores are right behind 4 intel cores. I'd only assume that it'd take 16 AMD cores to keep up with 8 intel cores. I know it's not a linear progression and that other factors are involved....but still, just a thought smile.gif

Actually, when fully utilized 8 AMD cores are slightly ahead of 4 Intel cores, Steamroller looks to benefit AMDs IPC in general by splitting the decoder too. (An FX-8150 as a 4C/2M vs 4C/4M gained anywhere from 10-40%, with most leaning towards 40%, that's from the cache and decoder mainly.)

I've shown the maths in this thread before, and AMD will be at SB/IB levels of IPC with either SR or Excavator (I'm betting they'll be much closer with SR, at least) but of course, they'll be competing with Haswell by then..and if the higher IB/Haswell OCs are true then Intel will win due to having extra clock speed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lacrossewacker View Post

interesting. does Intel have these decoders as well?

Thanks for the info so far!

No, Intel has one decoder per core as they don't use modules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stay Puft View Post

I don't know what to think hokies. If steamroller can easily beat a 4770K then I believe intel will have no choice but to give us a 5770K that's 6 cores.

IMO the 5 series should look like this

5770K - 6c/6t
5670K - 4c/8t

There's no way in hell that AMD will have SR compete with the 4770k, at most the 4570k, even if the IPC does go up to SB/IB like levels, Haswell has improvements on top of that and AMD would have to start making their chips clock higher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokies83 View Post

There is No way Steamrollers IPC will Improve by 59% to beat a 3770k.. No way lol gotta avoid the AMD section there trying to brain wash you lol.

And where did that 59% come from? You are aware that IPC changes varying on workloads, right? AMDs FX-8350/8320 IPC is damn near equal to an i5 3570k when its cores are all used, but is way behind when only 1-2 cores are used. Want proof? Compare an i5 3570k and FX-8320 on Anandtechs benchmarks, look at the multi-threaded benches and the single-threaded ones, they're within 100Mhz or so of each other and the FX pulls slightly ahead when its cores are used, usually.
Besides, IPS is what matters...if AMD managed to increase IPC by 10% but max OC by 50% then they'd be able to match Intel easily, just like if Haswell only increases IPC by 10% by also increases the average OC by a decent amount that will still be a decent improvement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindsay View Post

3. its like a 70w difference iirc, someone who has their rig on 24/7 like me that adds up over a year, and considering they are close in price that tips it in favor of the 3570k for me

At least you admit that it's a big difference for you, it's amazing how many people here forget that a lot of the world turn their PCs off a lot of the time...

There's also that your rig is idling most of the time (My i5 spends easily 75% of its time at 1.6Ghz) and PDs power consumption isn't that much higher at idle.
That has..nothing to do with what he said...

IPC is as meaningless as Clock Speed, the Cyrix 6x86 has a ultra fast 16bit IPC, probably rivalling some modern chips...Doesn't change the fact that the fastest one was around 300Mhz or so and has no hope of catching up to anything from 2004...And remember how Ivy Bridge clocked slightly lower than Sandy Bridge at first? A lot of people who were running around saying how much lower AMDs IPC is completely forgot that IvB had enough extra IPC to beat SB even at lower clock speeds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenge View Post

I guess it's a "pleasure" to recycle motherboards since AMD hasn't seen fit to even include native PCIe 3.0 support on their boards and probably won't for 2+ years, right? At least Intel has actual innovations on their new boards. Then again, AMD doesn't have the money to pay their engineers to design competitive CPUs, let alone chipsets.

You mean like how Intel still only has 2 SATA 6Gbit/s ports, while AMD has 6? PCIe 3.0 support is practically useless for AMD now anyway, you've already got 16x/16x support and most people who run dual GPUs are going Intel anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derp View Post

You haven't debunked anything, especially from a fanboy/shill fueled youtube video. Instead of wasting my time explaining everything at my specific address ill just paste this example from someone who has done the math at their house to show that in some cases, you would have to be an absolute moron to buy the 8350 over even the 3770k. 8c kWh is very cheap btw.

This is from idontcare, a knowledgeable moderator on the Anandtech forums who has owned both of these processors:

Okay, so if you run AC as well then AMD is a bad choice. I do this thing called "Opening My Window", it tends to cool my room down pretty quickly even in the summer months...Heck, even opening my door works.

Also, did he actually compare idle power consumption? You do realize that is what most PCs are sitting at most of the time, right? Anand says a 20w difference between Intel and AMD at idle...you can compare load all day, but the fact of the matter is that comparing TCO with only the Load numbers is a worst case scenario and only really applicable for Folders. I know I've said this to you before, so it would definitely be nice if you actually did take that into account instead of "forgetting".
Yes, the difference in price will eventually even out due to power consumption...But even 2 years is stretching it for someone here to upgrade, most people would have gone on to say, Steamroller/Haswell (In which case, please include the TCO of the new Socket 1150 motherboard vs keeping your previous AM3+ motherboard) by the time it hits 1 year, maybe 1.5 if AMD delays again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S.M. View Post

snip

+rep for actually doing the maths, rather than relying on other peoples maths and worst case scenarios to prove your point.
    
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post #337 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Actually, when fully utilized 8 AMD cores are slightly ahead of 4 Intel cores, Steamroller looks to benefit AMDs IPC in general by splitting the decoder too. (An FX-8150 as a 4C/2M vs 4C/4M gained anywhere from 10-40%, with most leaning towards 40%, that's from the cache and decoder mainly.)

I've shown the maths in this thread before, and AMD will be at SB/IB levels of IPC with either SR or Excavator (I'm betting they'll be much closer with SR, at least) but of course, they'll be competing with Haswell by then..and if the higher IB/Haswell OCs are true then Intel will win due to having extra clock speed.
No, Intel has one decoder per core as they don't use modules.
There's no way in hell that AMD will have SR compete with the 4770k, at most the 4570k, even if the IPC does go up to SB/IB like levels, Haswell has improvements on top of that and AMD would have to start making their chips clock higher.
And where did that 59% come from? You are aware that IPC changes varying on workloads, right? AMDs FX-8350/8320 IPC is damn near equal to an i5 3570k when its cores are all used, but is way behind when only 1-2 cores are used. Want proof? Compare an i5 3570k and FX-8320 on Anandtechs benchmarks, look at the multi-threaded benches and the single-threaded ones, they're within 100Mhz or so of each other and the FX pulls slightly ahead when its cores are used, usually.
Besides, IPS is what matters...if AMD managed to increase IPC by 10% but max OC by 50% then they'd be able to match Intel easily, just like if Haswell only increases IPC by 10% by also increases the average OC by a decent amount that will still be a decent improvement.
At least you admit that it's a big difference for you, it's amazing how many people here forget that a lot of the world turn their PCs off a lot of the time...

There's also that your rig is idling most of the time (My i5 spends easily 75% of its time at 1.6Ghz) and PDs power consumption isn't that much higher at idle.
That has..nothing to do with what he said...

IPC is as meaningless as Clock Speed, the Cyrix 6x86 has a ultra fast 16bit IPC, probably rivalling some modern chips...Doesn't change the fact that the fastest one was around 300Mhz or so and has no hope of catching up to anything from 2004...And remember how Ivy Bridge clocked slightly lower than Sandy Bridge at first? A lot of people who were running around saying how much lower AMDs IPC is completely forgot that IvB had enough extra IPC to beat SB even at lower clock speeds.
You mean like how Intel still only has 2 SATA 6Gbit/s ports, while AMD has 6? PCIe 3.0 support is practically useless for AMD now anyway, you've already got 16x/16x support and most people who run dual GPUs are going Intel anyway.
Okay, so if you run AC as well then AMD is a bad choice. I do this thing called "Opening My Window", it tends to cool my room down pretty quickly even in the summer months...Heck, even opening my door works.

Also, did he actually compare idle power consumption? You do realize that is what most PCs are sitting at most of the time, right? Anand says a 20w difference between Intel and AMD at idle...you can compare load all day, but the fact of the matter is that comparing TCO with only the Load numbers is a worst case scenario and only really applicable for Folders. I know I've said this to you before, so it would definitely be nice if you actually did take that into account instead of "forgetting".
Yes, the difference in price will eventually even out due to power consumption...But even 2 years is stretching it for someone here to upgrade, most people would have gone on to say, Steamroller/Haswell (In which case, please include the TCO of the new Socket 1150 motherboard vs keeping your previous AM3+ motherboard) by the time it hits 1 year, maybe 1.5 if AMD delays again.
+rep for actually doing the maths, rather than relying on other peoples maths and worst case scenarios to prove your point.

I should not have clicked the Blocked post so much Fail in this guys posting.

Clock for clock a 3570k destroys a 8350 in everything but Multi threaded even that is with in 10%...

So what do u think a 3770k does do it? rolleyes.gif

Looking at Real world HWbot results "Yeah i took the time to read them" It is complete and utter annihilation

http://hwbot.org/compare/processors#2493,2495,2689-3,6,7,8,9,13,14,15,16,33,34,43,48,55,60








Edited by Hokies83 - 3/27/13 at 6:55am
    
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GraphicsRAMHard DriveCooling
7950 w/ Alphacool block G.SKILL Trident X 2500mhz 2x4gb SanDisk Extreme 240gb sata III 6gbs x5 SwiftTech Apongee Drive II 
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CatLeap 2560x1440 + Acer hn274h bmiiid 120hz 3D Logitech G19 Corsair Ax1200 watts  Mountain Mods Ascension 
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post #338 of 338
For me where i can buy the 3570k and 8350 there is a $20 difference (Microcenter) with the 3570k being more expensive.


I pay approx 16c kwh in electricity costs.

I have seen that there is an approx 70w difference full load between the 3570k and the 8350, if i ran my cpu full load for 2.5 months it would pay off the difference. 5 months and half load, 10 months are 1/4 load.. you get the idea. Either way its enough to justify the cost difference especially given that the 3570k usually comes out on top, especially with a real overclock on it
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Overclock.net › Forums › General Hardware › General Processor Discussions › [Linus] FX8350 OC vs i5 3570K OC benched