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[HWCANUCKS] NVIDIA GTX TITAN vs. SLI & Crossfire - Page 20

post #191 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exostenza View Post

600 bucks gets me a solid 7950 CF that beats out the Titan and I would have 400 bucks left in my pocket to buy games or hwatever else I want. That is the decision I would make if I was looking for a new and high end solution at the moment. 1000 bucks for a video card that doesn't perform as well as a 600 dollar solution? PLEASE

Or get a used GTX690 off ebay for ~$700 biggrin.gif
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post #192 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

I'm with dejanh on this. Like I said in an earlier post IMO the stuttering issues have been blown way out of proportions. I ran two 4890's for years before upgrading to a GTX 670. Yes I had some issues here and there but more often scaling issues the smoothness issue. And I can quite easily tell the differences between 50 and 60 FPS even with a single card so its not like I can't tell if there is stutter. In almost all cases I rather have 45 FPS with two cards then 35 FPS with one card if you get what I'm saying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOtre2f4qZs
(not sure how to embed this)

It's still there even at frame rates beyond 60. It's just "less noticeable" because at that point all of the frames are rendering so quickly, it'll be more difficult to actually "see" it happening.

After using 6950 CF I couldn't disagree any more about having 45fps with two cards then 35fps with a single card. But different strokes for different folks! I'm just sensitive to it. And it's not even just that Xfps on a dual card setup feels like Yfps on a single card setup, but that micro-stutter is also very erratic. If was actually a "consistent microstutter" then it wouldn't be nearly as bad.

I will never go dual GPU as long as AFR is the method used. Even Titan will one day be replaced, only by another single GPU.
Edited by Creator - 3/22/13 at 4:03pm
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post #193 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creator View Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOtre2f4qZs
(not sure how to embed this)

It's still there even at frame rates beyond 60. It's just "less noticeable" because at that point all of the frames are rendering so quickly, it'll be more difficult to actually "see" it happening.

After using 6950 CF I couldn't disagree any more about having 45fps with two cards then 35fps with a single card. But different strokes for different folks! I'm just sensitive to it. And it's not even just that Xfps on a dual card setup feels like Yfps on a single card setup, but that micro-stutter is also very erratic. If was actually a "consistent microstutter" then it wouldn't be nearly as bad.

I will never go dual GPU as long as AFR is the method used. Even Titan will one day be replaced, only by another single GPU.

I'm quite aware of how frame latencies work. Just a few pages back I was explaining it to someone else. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otterclock View Post

The arguments I've seen regarding this whole matter seem to claim the situation is more like comparing a steady 30fps to a variable 20-40fps. Not sayin' I know what's what, but that seems to be the basic premise of that side of the debate.

That's not quite it. With SLI you are still getting more fps but the timings are more distorted. The monitor still runs at a constant 60Hz (FPS) so when it displays frames they have to be made to fit that timing or just repeated when there is no new frame available. That's what triple buffering is related to for example.

When you are running with vsync it looks something like this

I have my self seen microsutter first hand I know what it looks like. While videos like the one you posted can be informative they can also be miss leading. The fact is that the camera is not synced to the monitor refresh rate. So what you see filmed is not what you see first hand. If you did 3 runs of the exact same single card setup there would still be one that would look smoother then the rest due to way the frames line up. I'm not saying the multi gpu setup would appear as smooth as the singel gpu but just pointing out that there is some issue with this approach.

Also lets remember that they are artificially limiting the FPS in this instance. That's fine but remember I totally agree that 30 FPS on a single card is always better then 30 FPS on two due to frame times. That's not the issue. The point is that there is a tipping point where the added frames of crossfire/SLI outweigh the latency issues. You don't have to actually have to have better frame times all the time for the higher but more inconsistent FPS to look smother then a more consistent but lower FPS.

Of course after going form 6950 CF to a Titan you are going to have an all around better experience as the titan is much faster then your old CF setup. Also it seams you aren't entirely familiar with what microstutter is as the phenomenon is actually very consistent when its happening. Microstutter is not a single hiccup or a dropped frame but a constant jitter. Closest thing I can compare it to is that its like looking at a 3D movie without the 3D glasses though not as bad.

As for AFR well scissor and checkered board (aka super tiling) rendering have been around for almost as long as AFR. Some games use AFR others don't.
    
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post #194 of 206
I think that's probably why I haven't seen it that much - since most of the things I've tried (even benches) are running at far higher frame rates than my display - in most cases close to twice (120fps) as fast. Undoubtedly it's there, but if the affected frames are being tossed anyway it wouldn't show right? Not sure at which point the card disposes of the frames so I can't truly make an educated assumption about that - but if it's rendered and then simply tossed if the display timing indicates a new frame isn't needed - I could be missing the effect entirely.

I think for me the lag issues are more irritating (which I've noticed on my single card configurations - because they couldn't always render at 60fps) so to me having 'noise' in the display is less of a big deal than having the whole game bog down in a particularly complex scene.
post #195 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

Microstuttering (5-35ms) is bad, pure jerky stuttering (steady 40ms) is worse.

A solid 25 fps is most definitely smoother than something that bounces between 28 and 200 fps many times per second.

It seems our disagreement is about what framerate should be considered smooth. If this is the case, take whatever minimum consistent frame rate you consider to be completely acceptable, and now take frame times that indicate a universally higher, but completely inconsistent, frame rate. The latter, if you are capable of perceiving it, is going to be worse, despite even the longest frame time being lower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

HWC says nothing of the kind.

Yes, they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fat_italian_stallion View Post

The real question is "Who buys only one Titan?"

If I bought a Titan, I'd only buy one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fat_italian_stallion View Post

There is no competition for 4 way sli Titans.

Evidently, there is no competition for a single Titan either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dejanh View Post

why is everyone talking about this like it happens all the time and multi-card setups are useless?

Because it does, and often they are, at least CFX.

I used to run SLI 460s, and they weren't bad, but a single 480 was still better.

I recently moved my second 6950 into my primary system, and I'd say only about 25% of my games are noticeably better with Crossfire than without it (and most of those weren't really limited by one 6950), half are virtually the same, and 25% are clearly worse...and this is only if I consider games where Crossfire "works" and significant positive scaling is reported.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevman17 View Post

The only thing I can add to the discussion is that I have tried AMD crossfire twice, with 7970's and 6950's. Both times I had huge stability issues.

I never had stability issues, but you usually cannot run SLI or Crossfire configs at the same clocks the cards can handle singly.

Both of my 6950s can do 950/1450 alone, but need to be knocked down to 900/1400 to be 100% stable in crossfire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiGiCiDAL View Post

Undoubtedly it's there, but if the affected frames are being tossed anyway it wouldn't show right? Not sure at which point the card disposes of the frames so I can't truly make an educated assumption about that - but if it's rendered and then simply tossed if the display timing indicates a new frame isn't needed - I could be missing the effect entirely.

Unless you have vsync enabled, no frames are tossed.

A 120 fps, you are seeing at least part of all 120 frames, even on a 60Hz display. If one frame is sent to the display before the last was finished being refreshed, the rest of the screen is the second (or third, or fourth, etc) frame.

Microstuttering/short frames can be seen as especially bad tearing in many cases.
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post #196 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

A 120 fps, you are seeing at least part of all 120 frames, even on a 60Hz display. If one frame is sent to the display before the last was finished being refreshed, the rest of the screen is the second (or third, or fourth, etc) frame.

Microstuttering/short frames can be seen as especially bad tearing in many cases.

Ah well that explains a great deal then. I usually play with vsync on unless it's something where 'twitch response is required'. Even then I was always faced with a different compromise - because I didn't have the budget I have now - if I got a good card, it still wasn't good enough by itself to avoid getting really bogged down in complex scenes and therefore when I went SLI it was just such a marked improvement over the 'slideshow' of the 15-25fps dips that I was too happy to even notice that it wasn't perfect. smile.gif Of course, that was even more the case in the CS days because my Internet connection was pretty laggy as well, and of course, I didn't have an SSD raid either... so when you couple card lag with network lag and loading times... it's so bad that anything single-player with powerful cards (either single or XF/SLI) and a fast disk subsystem seems wonderful by comparison.
post #197 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

A solid 25 fps is most definitely smoother than something that bounces between 28 and 200 fps many times per second.

It seems our disagreement is about what framerate should be considered smooth. If this is the case, take whatever minimum consistent frame rate you consider to be completely acceptable, and now take frame times that indicate a universally higher, but completely inconsistent, frame rate. The latter, if you are capable of perceiving it, is going to be worse, despite even the longest frame time being lower.
Yes, they do.
.

No,a solid 25 isn't by default smoother than 28-200 (for crying out loud) and no HWC didnt say anything about higher latencies being better than lower. The only case this solid 25 is smoother than a 28-200 is when that 28-200 jitters which means shows high latency invisible to fraps. When this isn't the case it is always preferable.

All relevant tables (like those from techreport) specifially say "lower is better". Our disagreement has nothing to do with average framerate: It is about frame LATENCIES. When a video card throws out lower latencies without jumps it gives better experience when compared to one that throws higher latencies. Thats all.
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post #198 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL View Post

I completely forgot how quickly these threads fill up. Move away from the computer for an hour and two pages have filled up.
Your comments are well received and I'll try to address them.

I think one of the main issues with the "stuttering" effect boils down to which games are being tested. Admittedly, our previous testing suites were outdated and typically ran games at quite high framerates. This in effect can mask the impact of stutter as the frame times have less of a chance of spiking above the 40ms mark. As I already said, this was entirely my fault for not keeping up to date on the games being tested and it won't happen again.

As for the acoustics, I can't really comment about that due to the fact that I wasn't testing custom HD 7970 GHz Editions. Granted, there are several other options out there which allow for a lower acoustical footprint but for the purposes of the review, I was comparing reference designs to reference designs.
Could the next reviews incorporate Radeonpro frame limit settings in an effort to reduce stuttering, please?
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post #199 of 206
Blameless it sounds like you've had a bad experience with your CFX setup. I can't say I've noticed the same though. I have no issue running both my cards at their max OC and essentially every game I've tried has benefited from the second card.

I've noticed nothing worse from my 7950 Crossfire setup than my 470 SLI setup.
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post #200 of 206
My 7870 crossfire beats titan at half of the price of titan only time i will like titan is when i rob a bank and money is just a peice of paper for me
    
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