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[CB] SimCity Offline Mode Now Available. - Page 6

post #51 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruflot View Post

Do you realise what you're saying?
Would your clients accept an internal unit test version of the application you are developing?
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post #52 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Yes, "that's it".

You can remove the line and:

-have access to only one city out of a possible sixteen.
-have absolutely no region play (i.e half the point of SimCity games).
-have your city vanish as soon as you close the game.
-have no ability to play the game with friends/invite friends to play in your region if you ever wanted to

etc

So yeah, apart from half the game missing, simply removing the line of code lets you play offline, but playing a game offline and playing a game that works offline aren't the same thing. If Maxis offered the "modded" game as it plays right now as an "offline mode", the internet rage meter would probably be ten times higher.

I wonder though.

This article and those like it are making it look like modders are actually doing truly significant stuff in order to make any "progress". All they've done so far is find out how to enable a debug mode and edit a line of text to enable you to play a broken version of the game.

If making the game completely playable offline is so super easy and simple, why have the modders not done it yet? Why go as far as telling us all how easy it is, and then not do it? What's the hold up?

They have also discovered that the data being sent back to the servers has absolutely nothing to do with the simulation of "100000 Sims in your city" which is quite a significant discovery if you ask me and also you were the person saying that that has not been proven yet and that Maxis didn't lie. Well it is proven now and since that discovery has been made it is only a matter of some time for the game to be played within a region completely offline.

Since the servers send only resource info back to the servers (and the save files) all that is needed is to make the game save the files to the hard drive and not the cloud.

Well as a consumer though I never did care if this had offline or not, if Maxis and EA decided to take another direction with this game and have it as a multiplayer only that's fine by me, their game, their rules, what I didn't like at all though was the fact that they lied about the use of their servers and always-online. They said one of the reasons was that it was used to simulate the 100000 Sims in your city and send that simulation info back to my computer which has been proven completely false (in another thread) and I did not like it that they lied to the consumers, not at all. I would really prefer it if they came from the start and said that they used always-online DRM for resource tracking (which the already said) but also primarily for fighting piracy, if they were honest from the start we wouldn't even have news like these.
post #53 of 140
People who argue that it takes a lot of work to make offline play possible don't realise two things:

1. The game already sends and retrieves save data to / from a server. Ironically, it doesn't sent it to the cloud, that would have actually been proper engineering by EA and / or Maxis, but no, it is saving to the same server. What is the difference between saving to a server versus saving to your local storage ? That is the same thing as asking what is the difference between saving to an HDD on your local network versus saving to the PC you're working with at the moment. Intercepting that data and sending it to local storage instead can't be hard, and making a "Save as" dialogue box is one of the easiest things to do on Windows, come on, there is a standard one countless applications use. And the thing is, if intercepting that data is not hard, for EA and Maxis it's a piece of cake.

2. SimCity multi-player is not the same as an FPS multi-player. This game is not real time based, and therefore any argument that multi-player is really needed to take full advantage of the game is not quite as strong an argument as it seems. Consider this: the other players in your region might not be playing at the same time as you are, yet you are still receiving the same data until they log in again. And that could take hours or even days. And as far as I know, cities don't keep changing after you log out, so when you or your neighbour resumes playing, your / their city is just as you / he left it. So there are no real calculations being done here. It would be an interesting idea if the game was actually real time and things happened in your city while you were away, for example, or set to a commonly accepted speed by you and your neighbours, now that would make on-line a requirement, but such is not the case.

Multi-player as it currently is in SimCity, is something that many people can pass and is something that can be done on the local PC. If you're going to be waiting for new, different data from the neighbouring cities until the other player(s) log(s) in again, maybe you can be perfectly fine with making and managing your own cities in the region and play one and then another and then another, and then come back to the first, etc.

I bet one of the reasons they made the cities so small is that they are artificially forcing you to have to use this gimped and limited multi-player feature. If cities are so small they can't be self-sufficient, and you can't have your own region, then you have to rely on others, even if they are not playing the game for hours or days or weeks.
Edited by tpi2007 - 3/18/13 at 5:08am
 
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post #54 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheByt3 View Post

They have also discovered that the data being sent back to the servers has absolutely nothing to do with the simulation of "100000 Sims in your city" which is quite a significant discovery if you ask me and also you were the person saying that that has not been proven yet and that Maxis didn't lie. Well it is proven now and since that discovery has been made it is only a matter of some time for the game to be played within a region completely offline.

Since the servers send only resource info back to the servers (and the save files) all that is needed is to make the game save the files to the hard drive and not the cloud.

Well as a consumer though I never did care if this had offline or not, if Maxis and EA decided to take another direction with this game and have it as a multiplayer only that's fine by me, their game, their rules, what I didn't like at all though was the fact that they lied about the use of their servers and always-online. They said one of the reasons was that it was used to simulate the 100000 Sims in your city and send that simulation info back to my computer which has been proven completely false (in another thread) and I did not like it that they lied to the consumers, not at all. I would really prefer it if they came from the start and said that they used always-online DRM for resource tracking (which the already said) but also primarily for fighting piracy, if they were honest from the start we wouldn't even have news like these.

That is not what they have "discovered" at all, and posts like this make me think that so many people posting probably don't know enough about how the game plays to be commenting.

Also, she never said anything definitive or directly specific that the data being sent or retrieved from servers has anything directly related to what is happening on your PC. What she actually said was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy Bradshaw 
GlassBox is the engine that drives the entire game -- the buildings, the economics, trading, and also the overall simulation that can track data for up to 100,000 individual Sims inside each city.

The GlassBox engine does infact do all of those things......what part of that quote is a lie?

She never stated here that the servers handle the "100,000 Sims in your city", she said the engine does. And that is true.


The only "discovery" these "news" sites have made is that the currently played city runs on your PC and interacts with the region around it via the servers.

But how much of a "discovery" can that be when months before the game launched, she told us:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy Bradshaw 
There is a massive amount of computing that goes into all of this, and GlassBox works by attributing portions of the computing to EA servers (the cloud) and some on the player's local computer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy Bradshaw 
You’re always connected to the neighbors in your region so while you play, data from your city interacts with our servers, and we run the simulation at a regional scale. For example, trades between cities, simulation effects that cause change across the region like pollution or crime, as well as depletion of resources, are all processed on the servers and then data is sent back to your city on your PC

How do you "discover" or get an "inside scoop" on info we already knew about since Decemer last year, directly from Maxis themselves?


People are effectively walking up to Maxis with a microphone and asking them "What comment do you have on the allegations that the city you are playing runs on your PC and the servers actually sim the region?", ignoring the fact that three months ago, Maxis stated on their official blog that the city you are playing runs on your PC and the servers are used to sync it to the region.....

headscratch.gif
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 3/18/13 at 5:19am
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post #55 of 140
Quote:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Yes, "that's it".

You can remove the line and:

-have access to only one city out of a possible sixteen.
-have absolutely no region play (i.e half the point of SimCity games).
-have your city vanish as soon as you close the game.
-have no ability to play the game with friends/invite friends to play in your region if you ever wanted to

etc

So yeah, apart from half the game missing, simply removing the line of code lets you play offline, but playing a game offline and playing a game that works offline aren't the same thing. If Maxis offered the "modded" game as it plays right now as an "offline mode", the internet rage meter would probably be ten times higher.

I wonder though.

This article and those like it are making it look like modders are actually doing truly significant stuff in order to make any "progress". All they've done so far is find out how to enable a debug mode and edit a line of text to enable you to play a broken version of the game.

If making the game completely playable offline is so super easy and simple, why have the modders not done it yet? Why go as far as telling us all how easy it is, and then not do it? What's the hold up?


Yeah, but they said that they'd have the save feature and all working soon.....

Grizzle, EA and Maxis lied. They absolutely positively lied. They said their uber super advanced servers were needed to do some of the calculations to make the game work. Not true. We've seen what's actually sent to and from the servers. It's stupidly easy to compute even on a Conroe based system. Why you continue to be EA's chief propaganda officer is totally bewildering. Every single thread you're here writing multiple pages in favor of the worst company in America. Just stop. It's very annoying.

Do you remember this? You were so quick to post this and bold and underline so many different parts of it stating that SimCity will be offline-capable. You sang EA and Maxis' praises... and then we find out that they lied and you continue to defend them.

Why?
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post #56 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Yes, "that's it".

You can remove the line and:

-have access to only one city out of a possible sixteen.
-have absolutely no region play (i.e half the point of SimCity games).
-have your city vanish as soon as you close the game.
-have no ability to play the game with friends/invite friends to play in your region if you ever wanted to

etc

So yeah, apart from half the game missing, simply removing the line of code lets you play offline, but playing a game offline and playing a game that works offline aren't the same thing. If Maxis offered the "modded" game as it plays right now as an "offline mode", the internet rage meter would probably be ten times higher.

I wonder though.

This article and those like it are making it look like modders are actually doing truly significant stuff in order to make any "progress". All they've done so far is find out how to enable a debug mode and edit a line of text to enable you to play a broken version of the game.

If making the game completely playable offline is so super easy and simple, why have the modders not done it yet? Why go as far as telling us all how easy it is, and then not do it? What's the hold up?

You're trying to make it sound like the game has been out a long time. The game wasn't even playable for a week, and we're not even done with the second week since launch.

As has been stated numerous times, but of course some choose to have selective reading (ironic harpy is ironic), is that region-play is entirely possible from a computational standpoint. This in and of itself is a slap in the face to everything EA and Maxis have said about the game. While the game in its current state probably won't have the same multiplayer experience if it was modded, which it inevitably will at this point, the real million-dollar question is whether or not we could have had the same experience without their proprietary servers. With the meager amount of data being synced between players' clients, the answer appears to be an absolute yes. The only reason they've chosen to code in the servers in such an integral way is obviously so they can verify game clients.

At this point though, I highly doubt the vast majority of players give a patoot about the multiplayer. If they can run an entire region (16 cities) on their computer and save games locally without any server/online involvement, pretty much everyone would be content. Will the "experience" be the same? Mostly, yes, with the obvious difference that you'll be controlling the other cities instead of other people. This is a complete gaming experience. It's pointless to argue the semantics about this not fitting their "vision" for the "experience" at that point.

I find it funny that the defense has so dramatically shifted. We've gone from "it isn't possible because of all the computations for a city" to "it isn't their vision!"

edit

To clear up the 100,000 thing, here it is directly from her on the official website: http://www.simcity.com/en_US/blog/article/The-Benefits-of-Live-Service

Here is the key portion.

Quote:
GlassBox is the engine that drives the entire game -- the buildings, the economics, trading, and also the overall simulation that can track data for up to 100,000 individual Sims inside each city. There is a massive amount of computing that goes into all of this, and GlassBox works by attributing portions of the computing to EA servers (the cloud) and some on the player's local computer.

So in this statement, we're talking about the computational requirement for each city, and that it requires so much computational power so as to need a portion of it offloaded to their servers. How can we be arguing about whether or not they lied about the game, when there are two lies in that one quote alone?

Firstly, there are never 100,000 sims in any city. The numbers shown in game are inflated by a factor of 8.

Secondly, people's computers can do all the necessary calculations for their own city. This has been shown. But let's not stop there. It's looking to be possible that people can calculate an entire REGION on their computer. Even if that proves to not quite hold up though, we can still run our single cities, which was the original topic.
Edited by Kaldari - 3/18/13 at 5:37am
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post #57 of 140
The beauty of proper progress: Don't add stuff, just remove inconveniences
 
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post #58 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldari View Post

You're trying to make it sound like the game has been out a long time. The game wasn't even playable for a week, and we're not even done with the second week since launch.

As has been stated numerous times, but of course some choose to have selective reading (ironic harpy is ironic), is that region-play is entirely possible from a computational standpoint. This in and of itself is a slap in the face to everything EA and Maxis have said about the game. While the game in its current state probably won't have the same multiplayer experience if it was modded, which it inevitably will at this point, the real million-dollar question is whether or not we could have had the same experience without their proprietary servers. With the meager amount of data being synced between players' clients, the answer appears to be an absolute yes. The only reason they've chosen to code in the servers in such an integral way is obviously so they can verify game clients.

At this point though, I highly doubt the vast majority of players give a patoot about the multiplayer. If they can run an entire region (16 cities) on their computer and save games locally without any server/online involvement, pretty much everyone would be content. Will the "experience" be the same? Mostly, yes, with the obvious difference that you'll be controlling the other cities instead of other people. This is a complete gaming experience. It's pointless to argue the semantics about this not fitting their "vision" for the "experience" at that point.

I find it funny that the defense has so dramatically shifted. We've gone from "it isn't possible because of all the computations for the cities" to "it isn't their vision!"

First off the argument that it is possible for the game to have been made to work offline is almost stupid. Of course it could have.

If a developer codes a game to work a certain way, it will work that way. If they design it to play a certain way, it will play that way.

If the question is "could they have made a single player game", the answer to anyone with common sense is obviously, "yes".

But they weren't designing a single player game. They didn't code a single player game. They built a game that was designed to be played with other people.

They always said the game was an online game.

They designed and coded the game in that way and as such, it utilizes online facilities to function.

Secondly:

The game was not "unplayable for a week". Unless I managed to rack up 48 hours of play time in a game that "couldn't be played". There were intermittent issues, not total lack of service.

Nonetheless, that wouldn't have stopped people who were hacking around in the game files. If they believe it so "simple" to do, then their ability to implement the relevant features should reflect such simplicity.

Finally:

You assert that the experience would be the same in offline mode.

That single assertions shows the level of misunderstanding you have, both about how the game works and how it was designed to be played.


Playing with other people:
- Region Is always evolving.
- If you need something, you can ask a player to help provide it to you.
- Unexpected changes from other players cities can affect yours and present spontaneous challenges (i.e. they kill their excessive, polluting power plant for a more efficient, cleaner one. You were relying on them for your power. Now you have none).
- Possibility for different circumstances every time you open the game to play a city.

Basically, almost real time changes can occur that can show effects in your city.

Playing offline:
-Nothing happens unless you are in a city playing it. Nothing evolves without you making it. Nothing surprises you. Everything is linear.

That's basically it. Cities around your current city don't change unless you change them.

That is not the same experience at all. Not even slightly. That is not the experience Maxis planned for the game and that's what they mean when they say it didn't fit their vision.

They have always told us that what they were designing is an online game that is meant to be played with other people and that is exactly what it is, in both design and function.

If a modder can somehow make it so that I can get an offline experience similar to the online experience (i.e a non static region), I'd be happy to see it, but it isn't going to happen unless they can find a way to simulate cities you aren't playing on (so that they represent a live, changing, interactive city), while you are playing your current city.

Good luck with that.
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 3/18/13 at 5:48am
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post #59 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

First off the argument that it is possible for the game to have been made to work offline is almost stupid. Of course it could have.

If a developer codes a game to work a certain way, it will work that way. If they design it to play a certain way, it will play that way.

If the question is "could they have made a single player game", the answer to anyone with common sense is obviously, "yes".

But they weren't designing a single player game. They didn't code a single player game. They built a game that was designed to be played with other people.


You assert that the experience would be the same in offline mode.

That single assertions shows the level of misunderstanding you have, both about how the game works and how it was designed to be played.


Playing with other people:
- Region Is always evolving.
- If you need something, you can ask a player to help provide it to you.
- Unexpected changes from other players cities can affect yours (i.e. they kill their excessive, polluting power plant for a more efficient, cleaner one. You were relying on them for your power. Now you have none).
- Possibility for different circumstances every time you open the game to play.

Basically, almost real time changes can occur that can show effects in your city.

Playing offline:
-Nothing happens unless you are in a city playing it. Nothing evolves without you making it. Nothing surprises you. Everything is linear.

That's basically it. Cities around your current city don't change unless you change them.

That is not the same experience at all. Not even slightly. That is not the experience Maxis planned for the game and that's what they mean when they say it didn't fit their vision.

You're twisting my words. I did not assert the question whether or not they could have made this game single-player. Those are words you're inserting into my mouth. What I asked:

Quote:
is whether or not we could have had the same experience without their proprietary servers.

With the minimal amount of data being processed on their servers, there's no reason that data couldn't have been entirely processed on the players' computers. People have been hosting games within game clients for decades now. It could have been done here too. If people didn't want to participate in that process with their friends, then they could opt for the single-player mode. Simple.

Can the game be modded to achieve this? Only time will tell. Could it have been made that way from the start? Past games show that this is certainly so. Since the game coding is so deep into its current form, the changes that would need to be made may be too drastic.

Again, it was just an excuse to impose their DRM.

edit

Again.. notice the shift from "it isn't possible because of the computations" to "it didn't fit their vision of the experience."
Edited by Kaldari - 3/18/13 at 5:51am
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post #60 of 140
I am amazed that people are arguing this, I mean are you really surprised that EA lied to gamers? Seriously????

Oh well, this little one line mod is very cool for those that want to play the game without dealing with EA and online. However we all know what is coming next...

EA legal notice in 3....2....1......
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