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New build planning and a whole LOT of Questions

post #1 of 11
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o/

TLDR \ Build Planning Documentation, as well as bunch of specific technical questions.

Newbro to the forums here and have I got a doozy of a post for you guys. I've been lurking for a while trying to sort out some of the finer points of my next build, and I'm to the point I just plain need to ask some questions to ensure I'm doing all this right. I promise to post final awnsers here in the header text next to my questions to help out the next mega lurker comming up behind me. I'll also post the build with pictures as I get the parts in. everyone likes pictures right?

Lets start off with the premis: I havent bought a computer since 2006. So I'm sitting on top of a budget Best Buy box that I've taken as far as humanly possible after basic CPU / Ram / GPU upgrades over the last seven years. But unfortunately, I don't think it will survive the next iteration of operating systems (Windows 8) or games (I'm running Star Craft 2 and Skyrim at 30-45 frames on mid-high settings). So the 775 LGA socket is going to have to go. *sad face* solid little chipset.

But agast! Were in the AMD forums, so lets do this AMD styel!

Why am I going AMD? I saw a press release on their new FX 8350 processor (8 friggin cores at 4 ghz) and the new ASUS GEN 3 board that will have PCI-E 3.0 slots on it. For someone that only buys a newer system every 7 years, this MOBO / CPU combination looks like it will have some serious longevity to it, with only the need to update GPU's as things get bigger and nastier.

First off Budget: My target is somewhere between 800 - 1,100 USD. We could go as high as 1,400 but we really need to justify that much cash going out of pocket immediately, as opposed to upgrading as parts / prices drop and performace increases in the industry.

I can piecemail and upgrade the system over the next two to three years to keep up with the gaming industry so perfect high end parts now, is not an uber requirement.

Also - Serious Disclaimer - I am waaaaaaaay out of the loop on specs and technical aspects of forging a good sytem. So treat me with noob gloves here. (whether or not your noob gloves are actually plated pounding gauntlets of doom, or fluffy marshmallow monstrocities is up to you)

*****************

Build at it's core:

So here are the two components I have Locked Down for this build, and everything else will go in support of that:

MOBO: Sabertooth 990fx Gen3/R2 [ http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/SABERTOOTH_990FXGEN3_R20/ ]
CPU: AMD FX 8350 [ http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/processors/amdfx/Pages/amdfx-model-number-comparison.aspx ]

I've never OC'ed anything before, prefering to actually cap my GPU output for longlevity and cooling issues (but that was also a necessity for using the stock CPU fan and small mid-tower case this computer came with). So I'm not actually planning to OC this rig, but I'm open to very MILD OC options if it were reasonable.

Everything else is up fro debate and discussion.

*****************

Section 1.

The RAM Debacle:

Starting off, I've got a few questions regarding ram.

1A) The AMD processor specs says Memory Bandwidth is up to 21 GB/s dual channel memory. My selected MOBO supports up to 32. Does this mean that the processor can't realistically utilize more than 21 gb of ram?

1B) Also whats the best configuration for my ram? Old school building we would ensure that every DIM was filled even if meant less ram in the system to take advantage of the multiple channels to get a noticable performance gain. Does this still hold true?

I was thinking of dropping in a set of 2x 8GB ram to stay under the 21Gb cap(?) and have room to upgrade later.

If I do older thought process I could go with 4x 4gb of ram and take advantage of all 4 slots for multi tasking goodness.

Or, I could just bite the bullet and dump in 32 gigs of ram and be done and over with it at nail biting prices, which means I'll have to seriously Gimp another area of the build.

oooooooor (yeah, lot of options here), I could just go the super cheap route and dump 8GB (4x 2gb) 1600 ram into it for around $70. Use up all the lanes, and have solid ram for current and near future applications.

1C) Any noticable gains for going with the 1600 RAM as oposed to the 1866 ram?

1D) Technical specification question: Whats the difference (If any) between DDR3 1866 - PC3 14900 Ram and the PC3 1500 ram?

1E) Cas Latency and timing: Is higher or lower numbers better here? I am so lost in the sauce.


*******************

Section 2

Sound Card Therum:

2) Are sound cards still needed? At what point will a sound card out perform mobo audio?

When I was regularly building computers (some eight to ten years ago), one of the best tricks to get a budget gaming rig up and running was to drop a cheap sound card in an open PCI slot. This pulled all the sound duties away from the CPU and Mobo and freed up proc cycles to grind on whatever game you were playing. The current computer I have recieved an 8-10 FPS increase when I dropped a cheap $30 augy sound card onto her. It sounded exactly the same as the MOBO sound so it was a good trade.

From what I've seen onboard sound has come a long way, so is this even necissary anymore? Or is there still a noticable performace gain to be had for getting sound out of the CPU? At what price range of sound cards would you see an accustic difference over MOBO sound?

******************

Section 3

GPU Monstrocities

3A) Should I simply double / tripple up on my current video card and wait for the 7000 series to drop in price? Or, should I just bite the bullet and drop 250 - 350 bucks on one of the top perfromers? Oooooor, should I drop 2x $150-200 on two midranged cards?

The Mobo selected has three PCI-E 3 slots on it and supports cross fire. I'm grabbing the board for future upgrades / expansions rather than the immediate here and now. So when it comes to the GPU (since I'm fairly clueless to all the new fangled cards), I'm really trying to figure out what I need to have a good gaming experience for the next two years.

3B) Are two low end GPU's in cross fire as good as or better than one high end GPU?

Currently I've got a ASUS HD 6670 1gb 800mhz DDR5 card.

[ http://www.asus.com/Graphics_Cards/EAH6670DIS1GD5/#overview ]

She is holding her own fairly well, but is getting beat up a little here and there. At 80 bucks a pop, it would be fairly easy to simply buy a second identical GPU and drop it in cross fire mode. It's not PCI E 3.0, but it goes with the dual channel ram theorum. at a total cost of $160 how would these two compare against a $150-$200 single 7000 series GPU?

Going with the upgrading theme here, if I went that route I spend 80 bucks now, and can wait patiently for 7000 series GPU's to drop in price, or wait it out for a high end 8000 series card (supposed to be released late this year I think) at 2 - 300 bucks or so.

3C) Whats a solid 7000 series GPU card? I have no idea on this one, so I'll just ask.


**********************

Section 4

Phys X card?

4) What are these new fangled phisX cards I've heard mentioned in snippits here and there? Are they needed? Do they add value? Is it worth it in my build? Whats a good card?

Again, another area I'm completely clueless on. Sowy.


**********************

Section 5

Bang for the Buck Storage / with performance.

I'm planning on doing a similar setup to my current rig, only this time with an SSD.

Storage bottle necks is another one of those areas that really helps clean up smooth gaming once your figure out what your system can handle, so here goes:

1x 60 GB SSD boot / OS disk
2x 1 or 2 TB 7200 RP HDD in raid 0 storage / work horse HD. (Games and mass storage goes here, I barely use 200 gigs on my current system, so this should be fine)

5) Any objections? Good Idea? Bad Idea? Excessive on the secondary HDD? not enough space on the OS disk? Just askin for a double check here.


*********************

Section 6

The no Brainers:

More statements than questions, just talking out loud so you can flame me if I miss-step.

Operating System: Window 8 - I head the sheduler is much better at handling multiple cores than Win 7.

1x Blue ray Read Only (who burns blue rays when external USB HDD are available?)
1x DVD / CD burner


Extra Cooling: Cooler Master Evo

[ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103099&Tpk=Cooler%20Master%20Hyper%20212%20Evo&cm_mmc=BAC-MaximumPC-_-BOTB-_-NA-_-NA&nm_mc=ExtBanner&cm_sp=&AID=10446076&PID=3349309&SID=skim92X1160522Xaab495c94dbfb6c16942518c79d47c5c ]

Case: I've got my eye on the Roswell Evo case

[ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147175 ]

6A) Any good suggestions for a long term PSU? There is currently a 760w semi-modular PSU that can be bundled with the above mentioned case I was looking at...

[ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182073 ]



aaaaaand finally

6B) Did I miss anything major?


I appreciate any input or feedback. I really want to get this build done right, as I hope not to do another major system build for another half a decade. Just upgrade this thing as times start changing here and there.


******
This thread is gonna be a work in progress, and I'll post the build in it's final completion in my reservations below. ^.^
Edited by JaWriter - 3/21/13 at 3:30am
post #2 of 11
Thread Starter 
Reserve 1 -

For reposting good advice / arguments that may pop up on other pages.
post #3 of 11
Thread Starter 
Reserve 2 -

Future spot for final build specs and price
post #4 of 11
Thread Starter 
Reserve 3

Furute Build Pics / expeinces of cutting my hands on the case.

=)
post #5 of 11
To answer a qustion ,i would answer more but I got no time at this moment ,that 21gb/s is ram bandwidth ,most of the motherboards/CPUs support up to 32gb of Ram,and difference between 1600 and 1866 is worth it ,above 1866 doesnt rrally justify unless you want uber performance
post #6 of 11
Thread Starter 
Reserve 4 (Final Reservation)

Final Benchmarks / conclusions


Ohhh yeah.....

Were not to that point yet, but I'm gonna need to know what benchmarks you guys will want to see once it's put together and where to get that software.


^.^
post #7 of 11
Quote:
(8 friggin cores at 4 ghz)
Copied from another post, since this seems to have been missed in the enthusiasm:
Quote:
As far as CPU goes, I suspect the main issue you're missing is that AMD Ghz do not equal Intel Ghz. A chip's clock speed really doesn't say much about its per core performance. The real answer for CPU 'speed' is clock speed (Ghz) multiplied by instructions per clock (IPC). Currently Intel processors have much higher IPC. What that means is: if you have a modern Intel core and a modern AMD core & both are running at the same Ghz, the Intel core will perform much better.

Many people look at Intel vs AMD and they say "4 cores vs 8 at about the same Ghz, how is AMD not better?" But they don't realize Ghz is not actually a reflection of relative CPU strength unless the comparison is between two chips of the same architecture (Intel chip vs Intel chip, for example). Now maybe you already knew that. But just in case it was worth stating.

Also, if SC2 is an important game to you: it is heavily dependent on per-core performance. An area where Intel is CLEARLY in the lead vs AMD. AMD chips are good for certain purposes. But for your budget & purposes an fx-8350 will simply be inferior to an i5-3570k. Some years ago Intel did not have an IPC (instructions per clock) lead over AMD - it was the reverse. Now it does.

Edit: As for cores: as a general rule, gaming/casual use rarely benefits from more than two strong cores & virtually never more than four.

And you should consider overclocking. You don't need to go hog wild. A teeny tiny bump in voltage will get you a good 4.3 ghz-ish overclock on an i5-3570k. Potential core build parts for a $1000 computer:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116504
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157296
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835233082&Tpk=xigmatek%20gaia&IsVirtualParent=1
And if you live near a microcenter, you can get those significantly cheaper with in-store discounts. If you use the motherboard from newegg above, you can get a second copy of the bonus RAM it comes with for 2x8gb RAM for about the same price as 2x4gb usually is.

As to your other questions:
Section 1A: Who cares? You're a gamer, 8gb is comfortable overkill already.
Section 1B: RAM is like hard drive space: not enough is a big problem. Too much is pretty freaking useless. 2x4gb is the current standard "more than enough but not going crazy here" answer, except for some esoteric professional uses. You want to use 2 (or, theoretically, 4) sticks: dual channel is better than single-channel. 3 sticks = single channel.
Section 1C: RAM speed has shockingly little effect on real-world performance. The standard is 1600mhz, but there's not any real downside to getting 1333mhz, nor any big upside to getting 1866mhz.
Section 1D: Basically nothing.
Section 1E: Lower numbers are better. But see the answer to Section 1C. Generally 9-9-9-27 or something like that is pretty standard. You will NOT notice a real-world difference with, say, 8-8-8-24 timings instead.

Section 2: No. Onboard sound is fine for most users. Those who get the most benefit from an added sound card are: people with fairly high end equipment, whether it be speakers, headphones, or a microphone for streaming. Or people who obsessively play shooters & want to hear footsteps a quarter-second before the other guy. You will not see a system performance benefit from a cheap sound card. The motherboards nowadays all have a little Realtek processor (or some other brand) stuck on them, you don't need to worry about it taxing the CPU even if its onboard. If you're one of those people with $100+ headphones (and not some gaming headset like Steelseries Siberia or something), then maybe you can use a sound card. Depending on how much you want to spend you can go from a $30 Asus Xonar DG to a Creative Sound Blaster Z for $100 to more. But, not needed.

Section 3: SLI/Crossfire is a pain in the ass. Just get a good single video card. With your budget & depending on how much you blow on things like a sound card or ridiculous amounts of RAM, likely a Radeon 7850, 7870, 7950, or GTX 660.

Section 4: PhysX is a Nvidia only-technology that uses a crappy dedicated video card to add in some physics effects to certain games. Not many games, and I don't know of any coming out that use the technology. At your budget, not worth thinking about.

Section 5: Your budget/current usage screams 120gb SSD (room for some actual much-used programs, just a boot disk is kind of silly to be honest) + 1 or 2TB HDD. RAID is a bit silly unless you plan on recording uncompressed video a lot.

Other:
Windows 8 is a pain in the ass & I hate it. So you could stick with win 7. That said, there's nothing actually broken about it, I just hate the interface.
Why get a blu-ray reader at all?
You don't need a cooler unless you plan to overclock. I prefer the Gaia I listed above - for moderate to low overclocks it'll perform adequately & it's quieter than the Hyper 212 Evo - not that the Evo isn't a great price/performance cooler.
Rosewill Evo looks too expensive.
So does that PSU - you don't have the budget for multiple video cards, so you don't need more than 450w (550w if you go AMD). Here:
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=63238&vpn=P1450SX2B9&manufacture=XFX&promoid=1257
Rosewill Capstone is a very high quality line though. This is not necessarily so for all Rosewilll CPU lines.

Overall:
You're not paying attention to how much relatively unimportant parts will cost you given your not huge budget. You want to spend $800-$1000 but are dedicating $200 of that to case & PSU. Problem.

Here's a potential build, modified from one I did earlier. It drops overclocking potential to save some money. In the spoiler you can see the build I'm modifying from (for a guy who was near microcenter, with the better deals).

i5-3470 ($200)
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=72279&vpn=BX80637I53470&manufacture=Intel

MSI B75ma-E33 ($57)
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=74886&vpn=B75MA%2DE33&manufacture=MSI%2FMicroStar&promoid=1387

Stock Intel Cooler ($0)

Crucial Ballistix 2x4gb 1600mhz RAM ($56)
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=57953&vpn=F3%2D12800CL9D%2D8GBXL&manufacture=G%2ESkill&promoid=1293

Gigabyte 7950 ($295)
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=67546&vpn=GV%2DR795WF3%2D3GD&manufacture=Gigabyte&promoid=1397
Comes with Crysis 3 & Bioshock download coupons.

Bit Fenix Outlaw case ($48)
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=63255&vpn=BFC%2DOLW%2D100%2DKKN1%2DRP&manufacture=BitFenix&promoid=1395

XFX Core 450w PSU ($53)
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=63238&vpn=P1450SX2B9&manufacture=XFX&promoid=1257

Samsung 840 120gb SSD ($100)
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=77210&vpn=MZ%2D7TD120BW&manufacture=Samsung%20Memory%20%26%20Storage&promoid=1323

Seagate 1tb HDD ($70)
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=65701&vpn=ST1000DM003&manufacture=Seagate&promoid=1323
If you're serious about recording a lot of raw video, you may want to put two of these (or two of the 2TB versions, $30 more than the 1tb version) together in RAID 0.

Asus DVD-burner ($18)
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=49597&vpn=DRW%2D24B1ST%20Bulk&manufacture=ASUS&promoid=1323

Total: $897, including shipping. Not including tax, OS, peripherals, usb wifi dongle, monitor, or whatever.

Remember to thank e-sports sponsors you buy from.
Asus (various)
Samsung (WCG)
Gigabyte (various)
MSI (team Fnatic)
Intel (various)
Build for those near a microcenter (Click to show)
i5-3570k ($190) - in store @ microcenter

Asrock z77 pro4 ($69 - after a $40 off in store bundle deal) - @ microcenter. Make sure to raise holy hell if they don't give you the $40 off for bundling with i5-3570k. They should give it to you.

Xigmatek Gaia cooler ($20)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835233082&Tpk=xigmatek%20gaia&IsVirtualParent=1

Crucial Ballistix 2x4gb 1600mhz RAM ($49 after $5 off) - in store @ microcenter. Again, the discount is for buying with CPU + mobo, make sure you get it.

Gigabyte 7950 ($295)
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=67546&vpn=GV%2DR795WF3%2D3GD&manufacture=Gigabyte&promoid=1397
Comes with Crysis 3 & Bioshock download coupons.

Bit Fenix Ghost case ($80) - you can go cheaper, this one has some sound-dampening
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=73006&vpn=BFC%2DGHO%2D300%2DKKN1%2DRP&manufacture=BitFenix&promoid=1323

XFX Core 450w PSU ($53)
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=63238&vpn=P1450SX2B9&manufacture=XFX&promoid=1257

Samsung 840 120gb SSD ($100)
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=77210&vpn=MZ%2D7TD120BW&manufacture=Samsung%20Memory%20%26%20Storage&promoid=1323

Seagate 1tb HDD ($70)
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=65701&vpn=ST1000DM003&manufacture=Seagate&promoid=1323
If you're serious about recording a lot of raw video, you may want to put two of these (or two of the 2TB versions, $30 more than the 1tb version) together in RAID 0.

Asus DVD-burner ($18)
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=49597&vpn=DRW%2D24B1ST%20Bulk&manufacture=ASUS&promoid=1323

Total: $944, including shipping. Not including tax, OS, peripherals, usb wifi dongle, gas to get to microcenter, or whatever. If you feel the urge to spend the rest of your budget, I suggest a big fancy monitor or deciding if you want to spruce up your stream quality in some way (anywhere from a capture card all the way up to a second encoding PC like the professionals).

Remember to thank e-sports sponsors you buy from.
Asus (various)
Samsung (WCG)
Gigabyte (various)
Asrock (just sponsored Incredible Miracle)
Intel (various)

Edited by MisterFred - 3/21/13 at 1:01am
    
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post #8 of 11
1E - lower is better
2- only if you are a audiophile sound cards are needed
3B You will be better off with a high end card rather then crossfire lowend ones
3C- The best bang for the buck has to be the 7870 xt or 7950
4 Look on google for games that support PhysX ,if any of those games are your mainly played gamed then you should go for nvidia
5.Go for OS stored in SSD and perphaps 1 game , the rest of our files onto a HDD
6.The PSU looks alright ,tho I dont know anything about the brand

As for CPU for games usually like intel CPUs better ,+thet get better memory bandwidth
Edited by universal34 - 3/21/13 at 1:00am
post #9 of 11
Thread Starter 
Mister Fred:

Awesome response. Helped put quite a few things in perspective. I hadn't realized that Intell had climbed on top of AMD like that with processor efficiency. Its stuff like that I'm out of the loop on.

From what I've read so far (and what I know), intell changes sockets to match individual processors on a routine basis, creating dead ends in product lines. I ran into that with my LGA 775 chipset. At a certain point it just wasn't feasible to get the next processor up, and the poor little budget mobo just couldn't expand until I've gotten to the point that I'm currently at.

In all seriousness I am looking at the MOBO as the starter point and the idea that AMD tends to allow you to re-use and make long term use out of investments into Mobo and cpu. Which is why I was looking into spening most of my high dollar items for this build on the mobo / cpu / case / psu. If those are solid, everything else could potentially grow with the industry and you swap components every 2 - 3 years, grabbing the bang for the buck GPU's and such as needed.

Thats the theory.

Is there currently an intel Chipset that seems oriented toward that kind of forward thinking?

will the LGA 1155 socket motherboard posted in your core set allow for at least one solid CPU upgrade 3 years from now? Or with intell is it you buy the best you can and ride out the rig untill its truely obsolete?

Another question: I'm googling and running into a bunch of Jargon mish mashes in my head (slightly greek). Could you summarize Sandy and Ivy Bridges into plain english? Which is newer? Is there any indication which is going to be around 3 years from now?

Also: If cross fire and SLI seem to be touted at the epitome of gamer budget or raw performance tricks (by the manufacturers at least), why are so few people actually utilizing the technology? I noticed the board you posted didn't have the intel equivelent of SLI on her.

But again, thank you, that really helps point me into directions and options about what else is out there.
Edited by JaWriter - 3/21/13 at 3:29am
post #10 of 11
Long story short: no.

It's silly to upgrade to the very next generation of processors & Intel motherboards don't last more than a generation or two. That $60-$100 you blow on an Intel motherboard is only going to last the life of your current setup.

The same is likely true of AMD's AM3+ motherboards, as they've been around for a very long time. But hey, maybe they'll be re-used again?

Your call if you want to base your platform choice on possibly saving a few bucks in the future by spending more for a more expensive motherboard now.

Crossfire/SLI simply don't always work as well as you'd want & they force you to spend more on motherboard. Because GPUs are reasonably priced (a 7950 costs about the same as two 7850s, performs only a little worse than Crossfire 7850s in optimal crossfire situations & doesn't incur extra mobo & PSU costs), there's really no point to SLI/Crossfire when you can just get a single card & avoid the hassle.

Yes, the best of the best gaming setups use Crossfire/SLI - but they're also pushing multi-monitor eyefinity/surround display environments.

Are you gaming at a resolution of 5760x1080 or greater? No? No need to SLI/Crossfire then. A single card can handle resolutions 2560x1600 & below.

Intel's "Core i3, i5, i7", etc. lineup, for desktops.

First gen: I forget the code name, but 3-digit numbers, like i7-920.
Second gen: Sandy Bridge. 4 digit numbers starting with 2, like i5-2400. Except PEntiums/Celerons, which are 3 digit numbers prefixed by a g, like g620.
Third (current) gen: Ivy Bridge. 4 digit numbers starting with 3, like i5-3470. Except Pentiums/Celerons, which are 4-digit numbers starting with 2, like g2120. Just to be confusing.

Pentium: dual-core
Celeron: dual-core (a few singles) with a little less cache than the Pentiums
i3: dual core with hyperthreading (simulated extra threads that make for more efficient use of CPU resources in multi-threaded scenarios - generally not so useful for casual/gaming users)
i5: quad-core
i7: quad-core with hyperthreading (a couple of hex-cores too)

K-suffix: unlocked (overclockable)
no K-suffix: locked (not-overclockable)
S or T-suffix: various versions of slower low-voltage models
P-suffix: no integrated graphics

P.S. Intel is coming out with a new generation of CPUs later this year, called Haswell for no apparent reason. Both Sandy Bridge & Ivy Bridge processors will still be around 3 years from now in people's computers & will be doing quite well, much the like i7-920 is still a very respectable performer even for newer games coming out now.
Edited by MisterFred - 3/21/13 at 2:42am
    
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