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[CNET] Internet tax proposal up for a vote in Senate this week - Page 16  

post #151 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiGiCiDAL View Post

Now if you had said police protection, public education, welfare, social security, national defense, and so on... then you would be talking about things that would reasonably have to be completely given up in order to have little to no taxes.

I agree with everything you've said, except for this sentence. None of these things strictly require a government or taxation.

On a local level, people are certainly capable of taking care of their own, and mutual benefit/reciprocation is the only payment needed.

On a broader level, even national defense could probably be handled by private companies, or wholly volunteer forces funded by donations.
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post #152 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by chemicalfan View Post

I don't know anything about the American tax system, but I can't see the likes of Amazon, Google, Apple & Microsoft laying down and taking this....

Google and Apple already charge taxes on their internet sales...Just bought a Nexus 4 from them and it was 339 after taxes and shipping...I think taxes were in the 13 dollar range
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post #153 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

I agree with everything you've said, except for this sentence. None of these things strictly require a government or taxation.

On a local level, people are certainly capable of taking care of their own, and mutual benefit/reciprocation is the only payment needed.

On a broader level, even national defense could probably be handled by private companies, or wholly volunteer forces funded by donations.

I not only agree with you about that - but I would love to see it put in practice... I might even jokingly add that much of our 'national defense' is already privatized... it's just paid for with taxes rather than a direct charge. It would be interesting how many people would be willing to personally fund 'empire-building' if there was a direct fee-for-service system in place. I'm guessing we'd have many more of our men and women in the military back here at home with their families than we do now.

I wasn't saying it needed to be the way it is, but simply that the only things that our taxes are providing to us currently are things of that nature. I'm certainly not getting my 'computer, home, car, food, cell phone, etc.' because of taxes in any way - I just have to pay extra taxes because I have those things.

It's funny because I actually would almost immediately support a huge sales tax - provided it were used as a replacement for all the other taxes. That way those of us (including me) who purchase a large number of consumer goods, eat out often, have multiple cars, a house, etc. could make contributions equivalent to the luxuries we are blessed enough to enjoy. On the other hand, regardless of income, if there were an unexpected healthcare expense or a desire to start a business, go on a big vacation, etc... they could simply cut out major purchases and save significantly more toward that goal without requiring anyone else's assistance.
post #154 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by strap624 View Post

Middle class Americans know how to manage their income
That's why they will pay for everything.
 
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post #155 of 243
you dont pay VAT on internet sales in US ???

best
revro
post #156 of 243
i think it's fair given the retailers must pay sales tax. but i hope it is a national not state tax, because that would be super complicated and would probably suck.
post #157 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.D.BID View Post

Hi Bio!
You're only saying that peoples comprehension of economics is abysmal is because they are not agreeing with you. smile.gif

You seem to view the economy from a Keynesian economic stand point and it doesn't really work.

Where do you think the government gets money to spend? From taxes, right? To think that taking money out of the private sector and putting in to the public sector is going to solve this? We are all well aware of how inefficient the public sector is with money. I think I remember something about shovel ready jobs not being so shovel ready.

Less taxation keeps the money in the private sector where it belongs. If people have more money, they have a tendancy to spend it. If small business has more money, they spend it, grow their business and hire more people who in turn pay taxes on their earnings.
They can now afford to buy things, which are taxed. By lowering taxes you will increase the amount of tax revenue because the private sector can spend more. And when you have more jobs, those people are now paying taxes and you've broadened the tax base. Its created more tax payers!
Government spending does none of that. All it does is move money around by taking it from one area and putting it in another. It creates no new money. It's like taking a bucket of water from one end of the pool and dumping it into the other end and expecting it to fill up.

The last thing you want to do druing a recession is increase tax rates. Even the current president said that. Increased government spending does stall recovery and it prolongs recession because it reduces cash flow in the market. Keep the money in the private sector and let the free market work.


On a side note, I couldn't agree more with your side note. wink.gif

Hey RD! Well at least someone responded with an actual argument. biggrin.gif

I see a few flaws in your argument, the Bush Tax Cuts have not worked. The trickle down does not work. Look at the current state of affairs, would we be where we are if taxes had not been cut so drastically 10+ years ago? I cannot answer that question as there have been many other issues compounding the finance problem, ie Iraq/Afghan Wars and their subsequently large expenditures, bubble burst etc etc. But it could easily be extrapolated that if tax revenue had not been decreased then we would be in less debt.

Another issue I see with your argument is that people are not spending money as wantonly as you might believe. Many are so consumed with fear and worry about the future that they are holding their cards or folding instead of playing the hand. Even if a small business is expanding and hiring and increasing employee purchasing power, the employees are often buying goods that aren't taxed. Because of the prevalence of online shopping people are not paying as much in sales tax as they were 20 years ago. Thus the bill in question.

I am not saying to increase taxes to astronomical levels, just back to previous levels. Like the Clinton era, you know when we had a surplus. smile.gif


Also, Who said that they needed to put all the money into shovel ready jobs. I think tons of money should go into alternative energy R&D as well as other R&D programs. By creating new tech or increasing efficiency on something like solar, via increased government funds, then bringing that tech to market, you would be creating jobs and progressing the market. Sell solar panels to china, manufacture them here, i see job jobs jobs and money money money. If the government would spend in the right sectors they do have the ability to stimulate the economy. Free market might work this out, except we have 10-15 big bullies in the school yard who bend the market/government to their will. Which sort of makes this a self defeating argument... lol. The government could help but they are basically owned so whatevs. -sigh-

Honestly, it is all a huge mess and there is no easy or clear answer. Currently Politics are very frustrating and congress makes me sick. But we need to do something.


Anyhow:
Everyone sign up for BGB 28. Celebrating BOINC members achieving over a BILLION credits. Follow link in Sig to BGB 28 thread. biggrin.gif
Cool Prizes await!!!
Edited by Biorganic - 3/23/13 at 10:04am
 
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post #158 of 243
i think keynesian economics is basically premised on the idea that spending, any spending is good. it doesn't even matter if the spending is basically a waste of money/inneficient. look at all the public works jobs created after wwII. the 20 years or so after wwII were the greatest periods of economic growth in us history and taxes (especially on the wealthy) were relatively massive, as was public spending.

assuming that wealthy people will invest money back in the economy, or do so in a way that is beneficial to the country as a whole, is naive. a lot of that wealth goes into short term investments that lead to profits for the investors, but don't necessarily benefit the corporation or country as a whole in the long term. the deregulation of the financial industry and lowered taxes on the wealthy have respectively caused the recent economic collapse and massive deficit.

if you actually compare the two historically (rather than just making theoretical arguments), keynesian economics has a much better track record
post #159 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectblade View Post

i think keynesian economics is basically premised on the idea that spending, any spending is good. it doesn't even matter if the spending is basically a waste of money/inneficient. look at all the public works jobs created after wwII. the 20 years or so after wwII were the greatest periods of economic growth in us history and taxes (especially on the wealthy) were relatively massive, as was public spending.

1. assuming that wealthy people will invest money back in the economy, or do so in a way that is beneficial to the country as a whole, is naive. a lot of that wealth goes into short term investments that lead to profits for the investors, but don't necessarily benefit the corporation or country as a whole in the long term. the deregulation of the financial industry and lowered taxes on the wealthy have respectively caused the recent economic collapse and massive deficit.

2. if you actually compare the two historically (rather than just making theoretical arguments), keynesian economics has a much better track record

1. Completely agree, the bush tax cuts and their ineffectiveness serve to highlight this.

2. That would require people to actually evaluate empirical data. Ridiculous rolleyes.gif
 
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post #160 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biorganic View Post

2. That would require people to actually evaluate empirical data. Ridiculous rolleyes.gif

too often economists base their reasoning of abstract principles or assumptions. for example the assumption that consumers are essentially rational, when any marketer or psychologist could tell you that is a false assumption. a theory of economics that fails to take into consideration realistic human choices/behavior is going to be flawed
Edited by perfectblade - 3/23/13 at 10:32am
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