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[solved] BtrFS root - booting read only - Page 3  

post #21 of 45
@my last post

Wow, even D G A F was censored, that's a new one to me. Haven't seen a forum censor that before lol.
post #22 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

It's the kernel i wanted to rollback.


Without wanting to start a flamewar, I think I've been falling out of love for Linux in the last few months - and this is just another nudge pushing me towards running FreeBSD. I'm definitely having a crisis of faith lately frown.gif

Don't worry about that crisis, I've been mostly using OpenBSD lately because of some of the way things have been going in Linux generally and in Arch ( the general **** attitude by the dev team and forum, about some of the packages being forced onto us ).

once I learned more about the systemd and how it works I was kind of surprised they switched, and basically forced users to switch. On the mailing list they looked for people to volunteer if they wanted to see the old way still supported and it looked like some people stepped forward, but here less then a month later it's no longer in the repos.

as for the direction Linux is moving, I don't think the likes of Debian, Slackware and Gentoo are going down that road. Debian has been committed to supporting kFreeBSD and is unlikely to make systemd default any time soon for Linux, and I think a normal init system would be supported after that because all the package will be supportive of it anyway for kFreeBSD and Hurd. Slackware makes a big thing about how Unix it is, and doesn't look like it's going to start using grub and real package manager much less systemd. Gentoo has also clearly stated that the choice of systemd will always be on each user themselves. then again, a huge thing Arch used to say was it used BSD-style init scripts, and that it valued simplicity and correctness over all, so I guess we will see.
post #23 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrl1357 View Post

once I learned more about the systemd and how it works I was kind of surprised they switched, and basically forced users to switch. On the mailing list they looked for people to volunteer if they wanted to see the old way still supported and it looked like some people stepped forward, but here less then a month later it's no longer in the repos.

as for the direction Linux is moving, I don't think the likes of Debian, Slackware and Gentoo are going down that road. Debian has been committed to supporting kFreeBSD and is unlikely to make systemd default any time soon for Linux, and I think a normal init system would be supported after that because all the package will be supportive of it anyway for kFreeBSD and Hurd. Slackware makes a big thing about how Unix it is, and doesn't look like it's going to start using grub and real package manager much less systemd. Gentoo has also clearly stated that the choice of systemd will always be on each user themselves. then again, a huge thing Arch used to say was it used BSD-style init scripts, and that it valued simplicity and correctness over all, so I guess we will see.

And that's my biggest problem. Systemd is nice and it actually does make quite a bit a lot easier, but then it also makes a good bit a dang headache. Linux used to be about choice, now we're having things shoved down our throats when not all of the users like the change. There was a big uproar when systemd came out and the dev team and forum admins/mods were basically saying "just deal with it, it's happening because we say it is and because we like it". I respect that it's their distro and all, but they still have to please their community, or at least should feel obliged to.

Systemd is just one example, but it's a great example. Because people didn't like it, and when they stepped up and said something, they were met with hostility.

And I like that Linux is becoming a viable gaming platform, but now you also have some distro's like Ubuntu, who are putting Amazon webstores built into their system and other similar instances. headscratch.gif WHY!? I understand they need to make money, but it shouldn't interfere with your work flow, and it shouldn't be forced onto you. If I open Unity and search for a program, I don't want books from amazon, I don't want software, I don't want videos, I don't want music, I just want my dang program. Ubuntu and a couple of others are going that direction and it's annoying. Sure you can go through the hassle of turning it off or removing it , but that's not the point. Point is it shouldn't be there in the first place unless the user wants it there, which basically circles back to the systemd fiasco among others. And furthermore, with Ubuntu and some of the other more popular distro's doing the whole webshop thing, they'll start to become the norm as they are the leaders in the general linux user desktop world, which is more reason to not have to put up with it.

Wow, this is starting to turn into a rant :|
post #24 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

And that's my biggest problem. Systemd is nice and it actually does make quite a bit a lot easier, but then it also makes a good bit a dang headache. Linux used to be about choice, now we're having things shoved down our throats when not all of the users like the change. There was a big uproar when systemd came out and the dev team and forum admins/mods were basically saying "just deal with it, it's happening because we say it is and because we like it". I respect that it's their distro and all, but they still have to please their community, or at least should feel obliged to.

Systemd is just one example, but it's a great example. Because people didn't like it, and when they stepped up and said something, they were met with hostility.

And I like that Linux is becoming a viable gaming platform, but now you also have some distro's like Ubuntu, who are putting Amazon webstores built into their system and other similar instances. headscratch.gif WHY!? I understand they need to make money, but it shouldn't interfere with your work flow, and it shouldn't be forced onto you. If I open Unity and search for a program, I don't want books from amazon, I don't want software, I don't want videos, I don't want music, I just want my dang program. Ubuntu and a couple of others are going that direction and it's annoying. Sure you can go through the hassle of turning it off or removing it , but that's not the point. Point is it shouldn't be there in the first place unless the user wants it there, which basically circles back to the systemd fiasco among others. And furthermore, with Ubuntu and some of the other more popular distro's doing the whole webshop thing, they'll start to become the norm as they are the leaders in the general linux user desktop world, which is more reason to not have to put up with it.

Wow, this is starting to turn into a rant :|

^A lot of my thoughts. But my whole question is...at what point do we change from "organized chaos" which seems to be what Linux was before I tried it and what it is turning into? So much discussion is at what amount of lost choice do we accept when I think it should be how can we make these attempts at "consolidation" either still retain the same level of choice/hackability or make them "better"? Just look at pulse...people malign it when it deserved it and when it comes shipped in a crappy default config. Upon finding that config it has turned out much better than I thought.

The other question is how do we fund this(webshop topic). As much as we like Linux how many of us actually shell out? The better question...who do we actually fund? Honestly, that's the part that's still tearing at me as even the friend who got me into Linux said he'd never "work" in it as a developer of program as there isn't money.
     
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CoolingOSOSMonitor
Fanless Win10 Home x64 Kubuntu 16.04 (requires Linux kernel 4.5/4.6) 13.3 inch 16:9, 1920x1080 pixel, AU Optronics A... 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AthlonIIX4 640 3.62GHz (250x14.5) 2.5GHz NB Asus M4A785TD-M EVO MSI GTX275 (Stock 666) 8GBs of GSkill 1600 
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post #25 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

^A lot of my thoughts. But my whole question is...at what point do we change from "organized chaos" which seems to be what Linux was before I tried it and what it is turning into? So much discussion is at what amount of lost choice do we accept when I think it should be how can we make these attempts at "consolidation" either still retain the same level of choice/hackability or make them "better"? Just look at pulse...people malign it when it deserved it and when it comes shipped in a crappy default config. Upon finding that config it has turned out much better than I thought.

The other question is how do we fund this(webshop topic). As much as we like Linux how many of us actually shell out? The better question...who do we actually fund? Honestly, that's the part that's still tearing at me as even the friend who got me into Linux said he'd never "work" in it as a developer of program as there isn't money.

The organized chaos can be settled simply with a "consumers" Linux distribution. Something like Ubuntu ( minus the crap ) where there will be a unified interface, repository, etc, that will lead the consumer way. Just leave the enthusiast distributions alone for the enthusiasts and don't force the "consumer" stuff on us. Most people don't need all the choices we have, but they can still be there. So one distro, such as Ubuntu can focus on doing that, but should still do so in a way that adheres with the Linux philosophy and not do the half proprietary -or- "riddled into their system so much that it makes it near impossible to work on other's" crap.

Consumers are already getting used to Linux and *nix with the likes of Android, game systems, and the likes. So it can be done, but just on a larger scale than a phone or game system. The fact that they can use something and not know it isn't what they're used to, i.e. say a KDE or Mate setup that mimics windows. Most people won't even know the difference except that there's no IE icon to launch a browser. I know when I first setup my grandmothers computer on Linux, she didn't even know she wasn't using Windows till a month or so later when she wasn't able to install one of her damned toolbars ( main reason I got her off of windows, she would open IE and it would be a screen of toolbars :| ). I've converted my entire family with relative ease, and they are... for the most part, computer/electronic idiots much like the vast majority of people out there that do nothing but use a computer for facebook. Most of which could be taught in an introduction after you first turn on a new machine with ubuntu or whatever installed, much like OEM windows computers do. Just a quick where's where and how to do what.

I've donated to multiple distro's and foundations ( EFF and others ), and so have many other users. In fact, a lot of distro's out there rely on donations to keep their websites running and them going. There's definitely money in it, you just have to make a good enough product to warrant it, and not just another copy of a program that's already out, unless that copy significantly fixes problems and adds more wanted features that the program that it was copied from was lacking. Other than that, some distro's get sponsorships or other similar means, they just shouldn't shove those in our face much like Ubuntu does with the amazon affiliate links through it's dash.
post #26 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bomfunk View Post

Out of curiosity, why?

I don't really like it's package management tools.

For servers, it's doesn't really matter a whole lot as you don't tend to be installing stuff all that often. But I'm constantly fiddling with the set up on my laptop.
post #27 of 45
I could never be bothered with debians package managers either... They just seemed to over complicate such a simple task, just one reason I love pacman.
post #28 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrl1357 View Post

once I learned more about the systemd and how it works I was kind of surprised they switched, and basically forced users to switch. On the mailing list they looked for people to volunteer if they wanted to see the old way still supported and it looked like some people stepped forward, but here less then a month later it's no longer in the repos.

as for the direction Linux is moving, I don't think the likes of Debian, Slackware and Gentoo are going down that road. Debian has been committed to supporting kFreeBSD and is unlikely to make systemd default any time soon for Linux, and I think a normal init system would be supported after that because all the package will be supportive of it anyway for kFreeBSD and Hurd. Slackware makes a big thing about how Unix it is, and doesn't look like it's going to start using grub and real package manager much less systemd. Gentoo has also clearly stated that the choice of systemd will always be on each user themselves. then again, a huge thing Arch used to say was it used BSD-style init scripts, and that it valued simplicity and correctness over all, so I guess we will see.

And that's my biggest problem. Systemd is nice and it actually does make quite a bit a lot easier, but then it also makes a good bit a dang headache. Linux used to be about choice, now we're having things shoved down our throats when not all of the users like the change. There was a big uproar when systemd came out and the dev team and forum admins/mods were basically saying "just deal with it, it's happening because we say it is and because we like it". I respect that it's their distro and all, but they still have to please their community, or at least should feel obliged to.

Systemd is just one example, but it's a great example. Because people didn't like it, and when they stepped up and said something, they were met with hostility.

And I like that Linux is becoming a viable gaming platform, but now you also have some distro's like Ubuntu, who are putting Amazon webstores built into their system and other similar instances. headscratch.gif WHY!? I understand they need to make money, but it shouldn't interfere with your work flow, and it shouldn't be forced onto you. If I open Unity and search for a program, I don't want books from amazon, I don't want software, I don't want videos, I don't want music, I just want my dang program. Ubuntu and a couple of others are going that direction and it's annoying. Sure you can go through the hassle of turning it off or removing it , but that's not the point. Point is it shouldn't be there in the first place unless the user wants it there, which basically circles back to the systemd fiasco among others. And furthermore, with Ubuntu and some of the other more popular distro's doing the whole webshop thing, they'll start to become the norm as they are the leaders in the general linux user desktop world, which is more reason to not have to put up with it.

Wow, this is starting to turn into a rant :|

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

^A lot of my thoughts. But my whole question is...at what point do we change from "organized chaos" which seems to be what Linux was before I tried it and what it is turning into? So much discussion is at what amount of lost choice do we accept when I think it should be how can we make these attempts at "consolidation" either still retain the same level of choice/hackability or make them "better"? Just look at pulse...people malign it when it deserved it and when it comes shipped in a crappy default config. Upon finding that config it has turned out much better than I thought.

The other question is how do we fund this(webshop topic). As much as we like Linux how many of us actually shell out? The better question...who do we actually fund? Honestly, that's the part that's still tearing at me as even the friend who got me into Linux said he'd never "work" in it as a developer of program as there isn't money.

The organized chaos can be settled simply with a "consumers" Linux distribution. Something like Ubuntu ( minus the crap ) where there will be a unified interface, repository, etc, that will lead the consumer way. Just leave the enthusiast distributions alone for the enthusiasts and don't force the "consumer" stuff on us. Most people don't need all the choices we have, but they can still be there. So one distro, such as Ubuntu can focus on doing that, but should still do so in a way that adheres with the Linux philosophy and not do the half proprietary -or- "riddled into their system so much that it makes it near impossible to work on other's" crap.

Consumers are already getting used to Linux and *nix with the likes of Android, game systems, and the likes. So it can be done, but just on a larger scale than a phone or game system. The fact that they can use something and not know it isn't what they're used to, i.e. say a KDE or Mate setup that mimics windows. Most people won't even know the difference except that there's no IE icon to launch a browser. I know when I first setup my grandmothers computer on Linux, she didn't even know she wasn't using Windows till a month or so later when she wasn't able to install one of her damned toolbars ( main reason I got her off of windows, she would open IE and it would be a screen of toolbars :| ). I've converted my entire family with relative ease, and they are... for the most part, computer/electronic idiots much like the vast majority of people out there that do nothing but use a computer for facebook. Most of which could be taught in an introduction after you first turn on a new machine with ubuntu or whatever installed, much like OEM windows computers do. Just a quick where's where and how to do what.

I've donated to multiple distro's and foundations ( EFF and others ), and so have many other users. In fact, a lot of distro's out there rely on donations to keep their websites running and them going. There's definitely money in it, you just have to make a good enough product to warrant it, and not just another copy of a program that's already out, unless that copy significantly fixes problems and adds more wanted features that the program that it was copied from was lacking. Other than that, some distro's get sponsorships or other similar means, they just shouldn't shove those in our face much like Ubuntu does with the amazon affiliate links through it's dash.

Yes, what was wrong (for the basic consumer, not enthusiasts) with the Ubuntu with Gnome 2? Linux Mint with MATE or Cinnamon forms, in my mind, the kind of distro that could really take off in prebuilts. As for the family, I've had the exact same experience- People didn't even notice, they just opened the menu, clicks files/vlc/chrome/whatever, and used the computer like normal. The only reason it couldn't in because of microsofts monopoly on company's like Dell and HP. until (and if) they man up and offer other OSes nothing will come close to Windows in the Desktop front. When some OEMs have it's worked very well (Chrome OS now accounts for like 5-10% of new computer sales or something like that)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bomfunk View Post

Out of curiosity, why?

I don't really like it's package management tools.

For servers, it's doesn't really matter a whole lot as you don't tend to be installing stuff all that often. But I'm constantly fiddling with the set up on my laptop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

I could never be bothered with debians package managers either... They just seemed to over complicate such a simple task, just one reason I love pacman.

how is it over complicated? Pacman seems a bit faster but if anything aptitude is more user friendly. If you want to install, you just say 'install' to remove, 'remove' it couldn't be simpler.
post #29 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrl1357 View Post

how is it over complicated? Pacman seems a bit faster but if anything aptitude is more user friendly. If you want to install, you just say 'install' to remove, 'remove' it couldn't be simpler.


pacman -Syu package-name ;-)

Pacman is also more human readable, easier to search / see what's already installed, it's quicker and requires fewer keystrokes. And its not just pacman that outperforms apt. So while I like debian, I find apt to be overrated.
post #30 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrl1357 View Post

how is it over complicated? Pacman seems a bit faster but if anything aptitude is more user friendly. If you want to install, you just say 'install' to remove, 'remove' it couldn't be simpler.


pacman -Syu package-name ;-)

Pacman is also more human readable, easier to search / see what's already installed, it's quicker and requires fewer keystrokes. And its not just pacman that outperforms apt. So while I like debian, I find apt to be overrated.

aptitude show or use dpkg
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