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post #121 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlasov_581 View Post

you mean to tell me that you won't be able to notice a difference between 28 and 45 fps?

Between true FPS you could, but if 1/3 of those frames are runts you wouldn't. Depends on if your 480s had MS. My 470s had in BFBC2 at first.
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post #122 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

Between true FPS you could, but if 1/3 of those frames are runts you wouldn't. Depends on if your 480s had MS. My 470s had in BFBC2 at first.

It was never proven that nv's term for runt which is the removal of actual visible fps from the chart is actual frame rates one would see. Right now all that's been shown about it is that it's being removed from actual frame rates. Nothing more, so there is no correlation.
post #123 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcg75 View Post

What? Nobody is saying microstutter is worse than low fps. Perhaps a "good enough" experience is where it ends with you but the rest of us know that if the companies work at it, we can have high fps and smooth gameplay.

high fps?.....just how high of fps are we talking about?.....60? 120? is anything beyond that needed?.......when I'm playing HL2 maxed with 3 480s @1920x1080, I'm locked at 60FPS with vsync.....there is NO stuttering, there are NO pauses, hiccups, or drops......smooth as butter........yea I know a computer can tell that they're there, but if my eyes can't what's the point?......now when I'm playing Crysis 3 and I maybe add 32XAA in ncp, and my entire rig takes a dump, that's not a software issue.....that is physical limitation of hardware.......I'm going beyond the amount of data that my system is capable of processing.......so how can you tell the difference between not enough power and stuttering?......I'm not talking about monitoring with software, I'm talking about seeing it with my own eyes, not to mention that this monitoring software is running on the very system that is having these issues......how do we know that the data is being evaluated correctly?.....I mean, we're talking about milliseconds here
    
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post #124 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post

It was never proven that nv's term for runt which is the removal of actual visible fps from the chart is actual frame rates one would see. Right now all that's been shown about it is that it's being removed from actual frame rates. Nothing more, so there is no correlation.

Are you saying that runts haven't been proven to be real?

Because they're clearly visible in the captured footage. Colored for convenience.

 
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post #125 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Are you saying that runts haven't been proven to be real?
There is no proof that lowering the frame rate of CF is the actual frames per second one is seeing. Right now we are only seeing them removed for the sake of it. Runt, is nothing more then a screen tear in between frames with a frame. There is no actual causation to imply or suggest that frame rates are reduced.
post #126 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post

There is no proof that lowering the frame rate of CF is the actual frames per second one is seeing. Right now we are only seeing them removed for the sake of it. Runt, is nothing more then a screen tear in between frames with a frame. There is no actual causation to imply or suggest that frame rates are reduced.

I think you don't understand what you're talking about. Runt is a fully rendered frame which is so short lived that you can only see it like the green line in the picture that I posted above. Despite this it's counted by fraps as a full frame and hence fraps numbers don't represent the gameplay experience.

What you are saying about runt frames is entirely wrong, they're not screen tearing, they're full frames that are extremely short lived. Now if all frames were like this there wouldn't be a problem but since they're mixed in with long frames they don't contribute much to the gaming experience, not unless you have extremely low frame rates in which case they would appear to be longer and would give a reasonable and easily felt increase in performance.
 
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post #127 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

I think you don't understand what you're talking about.
I understand what a runt is just find. The pics showing it clearly depicts my explanation of it. As a result it doesn't provide any data showing frame rates are lower then what the frame counter reveals other then removing them from the chart. thumb.gif
post #128 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

So as far as single GPU stuttering goes DX9 should be fixed, DX10 is in the process and DX11 should come at some point. On top of that some individual titles have been fixed. So lots of improvements already and much more coming.

As far as multi GPU stuttering goes:
Even Anand is backing PCper in their findings (link found in the anand article). The issues are very much real and those very short frames that people have been talking about lately are a thing that should be noted.

Also does anyone think that this new choice they will be offering to the user:
Might mean that the mode where MS is reduced could result in less raw fps. At least to me it sounds like they're definitely offering users a compromise here. At the very least it sounds like a choice between more input lag and more stuttering. However I do remember at some point reading that NV cards might have a tiny bit more input lag, can't remember where I saw that.

Will be interesting to see the results in any case though.

Yeah, see this si where I think AMD are making a failure manuvure. Giving users the option of frame-pacing over latency is just... well, crap. Latency is a big issue. IF they lower latency they lower their FPS and they know this.. so by leaving it open they can still gain FPS, but with stuttering.

Any review websites from this point forward should ALL force the latency reducing options. Then you can fairly compare the performance of cards.
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post #129 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

I think you don't understand what you're talking about. Runt is a fully rendered frame which is so short lived that you can only see it like the green line in the picture that I posted above. Despite this it's counted by fraps as a full frame and hence fraps numbers don't represent the gameplay experience.

What you are saying about runt frames is entirely wrong, they're not screen tearing, they're full frames that are extremely short lived. Now if all frames were like this there wouldn't be a problem but since they're mixed in with long frames they don't contribute much to the gaming experience, not unless you have extremely low frame rates in which case they would appear to be longer and would give a reasonable and easily felt increase in performance.

Yeah, it can appear in the form of a tear since the runt can have a different camera angle just skewing the picture. That's the only thing that's right in his post. If you didn't quote him, I wouldn't even have to read those posts lol.
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post #130 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

I think you don't understand what you're talking about. Runt is a fully rendered frame which is so short lived that you can only see it like the green line in the picture that I posted above. Despite this it's counted by fraps as a full frame and hence fraps numbers don't represent the gameplay experience.

What you are saying about runt frames is entirely wrong, they're not screen tearing, they're full frames that are extremely short lived. Now if all frames were like this there wouldn't be a problem but since they're mixed in with long frames they don't contribute much to the gaming experience, not unless you have extremely low frame rates in which case they would appear to be longer and would give a reasonable and easily felt increase in performance.

He is partially right, in the photo you showed the gpu has rendered 3 full frames, but because of the monitor refresh rate is so low only part of the middle one is shown, if for example the refresh rate would be higher the third frame would be displayed fully, although it would still be shown for a very short time.

The uneven frame distribution causes a very similar visual effect to screen tearing
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