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post #131 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post

I understand what a runt is just find. The pics showing it clearly depicts my explanation of it. As a result it doesn't provide any data showing frame rates are lower then what the frame counter reveals other then removing them from the chart. thumb.gif

Except when you compare the pics (or the raw data in its entirety) to what fraps and the new tools are telling us it's 100% clear that those extremely short frames are exactly what PCPer is saying they are, fully rendered frames with an extremely short frame time. No the pics do not back your explanation of it at all, what you see is not tearing, tearing doesn't magically create a part of a frame, tearing is only the point at which one frame stops and one begins. A runt frame is not a screen tear and there is no reason at all to believe that it would be.

So yes all the frames fraps is reporting are rendered alright, however all of them aren't shown to the player in any meaningful amount.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

Yeah, it can appear in the form of a tear since the runt can have a different camera angle just skewing the picture. That's the only thing that's right in his post. If you didn't quote him, I wouldn't even have to read those posts lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasp1js View Post

He is partially right, in the photo you showed the gpu has rendered 3 full frames, but because of the monitor refresh rate is so low only part of the middle one is shown, if for example the refresh rate would be higher the third frame would be displayed fully, although it would still be shown for a very short time.

The uneven frame distribution causes a very similar visual effect to screen tearing

I'm not denying that it can't look like a tear superficially. However it looking like a tear validates what PCPer is saying about it.
 
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post #132 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Except when you compare the pics (or the raw data in its entirety) to what fraps and the new tools are telling us it's 100% clear that those extremely short frames are exactly what PCPer is saying they are, fully rendered frames with an extremely short frame time. No the pics do not back your explanation of it at all, what you see is not tearing, tearing doesn't magically create a part of a frame, tearing is only the point at which one frame stops and one begins. A runt frame is not a screen tear and there is no reason at all to believe that it would be.

So yes all the frames fraps is reporting are rendered alright, however all of them aren't shown to the player in any meaningful amount.

I'm not denying that it can't look like a tear superficially. However it looking like a tear validates what PCPer is saying about it.

Agreed.
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post #133 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Except when you compare the pics (or the raw data in its entirety) to what fraps and the new tools are telling us it's 100% clear that those extremely short frames are exactly what PCPer is saying they are, fully rendered frames with an extremely short frame time. No the pics do not back your explanation of it at all, what you see is not tearing, tearing doesn't magically create a part of a frame, tearing is only the point at which one frame stops and one begins. A runt frame is not a screen tear and there is no reason at all to believe that it would be.

So yes all the frames fraps is reporting are rendered alright, however all of them aren't shown to the player in any meaningful amount.

I'm not denying that it can't look like a tear superficially. However it looking like a tear validates what PCPer is saying about it.

That short frame still has a effect though. If it did not then CFX would not be any different in performance to single GPU or better said feel no different.
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post #134 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

That short frame still has a effect though. If it did not then CFX would not be any different in performance to single GPU or better said feel no different.

In some cases it doesn't feel different.

The problem we have here is that at high frame rates the runts appear much shorter which means that their effect on the gameplay experience is next to nothing.

However if you have an extremely demanding game and it say doubles the frame times on average. Those runts that just previously were almost nonexistent are now double in length, meaning that they have more of an effect on gameplay.

This basically means that the lower the fps the more crossfire gives a benefit for the user, which is why it's very much noticeable in the games that you most of the time buy the 2nd card for.

You also have the issue of choosing the limit for a normal or a runt frame.
 
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post #135 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

That short frame still has a effect though. If it did not then CFX would not be any different in performance to single GPU or better said feel no different.

No, that particular frame is rendered but the timing is off. It causes those very high and very low framtime plots you should have plenty of by now. That is in fact PCPer's finding. In a lot of cases the second card causes a placebo effect. Or even the case sometimes is that it gives worse experience vs a single card.
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post #136 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

No, that particular frame is rendered but the timing is off. It causes those very high and very low framtime plots you should have plenty of by now. That is in fact PCPer's finding. In a lot of cases the second card causes a placebo effect. Or even the case sometimes is that it gives worse experience vs a single card.

It depends on the situation a bit, but yes when the frames are in fact that short then it does not have any effect on the smoothness of the game.
 
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post #137 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

I think you don't understand what you're talking about. Runt is a fully rendered frame which is so short lived that you can only see it like the green line in the picture that I posted above. Despite this it's counted by fraps as a full frame and hence fraps numbers don't represent the gameplay experience.

What you are saying about runt frames is entirely wrong, they're not screen tearing, they're full frames that are extremely short lived. Now if all frames were like this there wouldn't be a problem but since they're mixed in with long frames they don't contribute much to the gaming experience, not unless you have extremely low frame rates in which case they would appear to be longer and would give a reasonable and easily felt increase in performance.

thanks for the explanation. but i wonder, what is Nvidia doing that keeps their frames aren't short lived and how could AMD potentially fix the current problem?
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post #138 of 152

Has anyone tried watching pcper's video's in 2x speed? It's like watching the gameplay real-time and you could definitely notice the stuttering in some videos. I recommend you use IE10 or IE9 and HTML5 (http://www.youtube.com/html5) to watch these videos in 2x speed.

 

This should show up:

 

Turn it to 2x and watch Sleeping Dogs and Far Cry 3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY0iFojEKRU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvS9JBzUzMM

    
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post #139 of 152
I will agree that sli or any other dual gpu isn't as smooth on lower frame rates. I have this issue on unigine heaven 4.0 when everything is maxed out. when the fps dips below the 50's the game does not feel as 'smooth'

where as its smoother on 35fpswith a sing;e gpu
post #140 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by eBombzor View Post

I recommend you use IE10 or IE9


Whoa, whoa, let's not do anything hasty here. I had kids in the room when this post came on the screen.

EDIT:

on a serious note, the beginning of this video is also quite obvious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=r8udnXLrHN0&feature=endscreen
Edited by Rubers - 4/7/13 at 1:20pm
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [Anand] AMD Comments on GPU Stuttering, Offers Driver Roadmap & Perspective on Benchmarking