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[Anand] AMD Comments on GPU Stuttering, Offers Driver Roadmap & Perspective on Benchmarking - Page 9

post #81 of 152
What a great read! Good to see AMD figuring this stuff out although I wonder why they didn't figure it out earlier.
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post #82 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by kzinti1 View Post

If Windows is a major problem with stuttering, then why can't they develop a user-switchable "gaming mode" to make the OS prioritize the resources of the OS in favor of the games and their rendering processes?

windows, is a problematic OS for this, it has sort of been hammered into compliance, by design its not meant for low latency type process's. Linux has similar issues. Both systems compromise some aspects of latency , stutter and frame time and lag, in trade for high bandwitdh, not always the best compromise.
post #83 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by kzinti1 View Post

If Windows is a major problem with stuttering, then why can't they develop a user-switchable "gaming mode" to make the OS prioritize the resources of the OS in favor of the games and their rendering processes?

windows, is a problematic OS for this, it has sort of been hammered into compliance, by design its not meant for low latency type process's. Linux has similar issues. Both systems compromise some aspects of latency , stutter and frame time and lag, in trade for high bandwitdh, not always the best compromise.
post #84 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by kzinti1 View Post

If Windows is a major problem with stuttering, then why can't they develop a user-switchable "gaming mode" to make the OS prioritize the resources of the OS in favor of the games and their rendering processes?

It's not about the OS per se, a lot of dev work can be done on drivers and applications to reduce latency. This takes longer than what the average developer will deal with, so you get the "shoddy port" aspect going. You can get some really good examples of low latency on Windows, some pro audio setups can achieve some really good latency numbers. I've herd lower than 10ms can be achieved, which is pretty decent. The issue with this is, you have to have a very clean system. Disable anything non-essential, a stripped down windows (might even remove functions you may enjoy but do not require, when I mean bare bones it's bare bones).

Linux allows for things to be done in a similar way, you just have more control and an easier time getting latencies. Linux can easily get 5ms or lower, build a low latency kernel (with other tweaks). That's how OSX get's low latency setups, they do some pretty good custom work. As well as hardware control, another topic for another day I suppose. Don't listen to Collins, it can be done and could be done. The articles however aren't talking about that low of a setup, they are taking the standard desktop and probably using that as a base. So they want to shave off latency from their applications, which helps the issue regardless of a user's system.

Think of it this way, if your program adds 15ms of latency and you can shave that down to 10ms. Well, every person regardless of their system setup is going to get a performance boost. So you have done a good job as being an efficient programmer. That's what they are talking about, finding ways to use the D3D/OGL API so that you get the same result (pretty game) with a lower latency. That improves frames more. Or if you are a hardware manufacturer, the same applies. if your driver can cut out a few ms of latency you get boosts all around. Depending on the function call and what area of the driver (or software) you are trying to tighten up.

He is right about the general setups, both Linux/Windows aren't normally distributed with latency in mind. Windows especially so, Linux generally so.

[edit] Haha, I just decided to read the article again. I guess they are including the latency issues of the OS. However as far as the desktop itself goes, when most people talk about latency issues it isn't directed towards the OS. The idea that AMD has a huge variance in latency times, instead of a constant, is what a lot of the fuss is about. You look at the Nvidia side, they comment how it doesn't vary as much. This was to indicate AMD is having some driver issues, something in the stack isn't running smoothly. Since the only difference in the stack is the hardware and drivers (assuming so), the problem should be with the variables. Meaning, AMD has an issue with the stack. Thus they have worse latency issues, should be fixed.

The whole article to me reads as an excuse for AMD to push off their driver issues. I find that displeasing, probably a PR move to save face. Lame.
Edited by mushroomboy - 3/27/13 at 1:04am
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post #85 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasp1js View Post

Interesting read.
Fermi isn't that old.

2010. Pretty old in computing years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darksideleader View Post

Hard Drive =/= 3D gaming performance

Where did you come up with misinformation like that?

While any modern HDD should be good enough, a slow enough HDD does make a game laggy...I once installed BF2 on an 8GB ancient drive, got a tonne of lag, reinstalled it on my (then modern) 200GB IDE drive and got 60fps constantly. If it is his HDD, having 4GB RAM would only compound the issue as it has to reload new textures, data, etc from the HDD more often.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisaroth View Post

That was a very good read. I looked over the page thinking "so much text, not gonna read everything". But when i was at the end of the page i was happy there were more pages of this great article biggrin.gif.

Even if you don't care about frame latency then it is still very worthy to read because of the explanation of how the rendering pipeline works.

Most anandtech articles are like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phill1978 View Post

Does Linux offer frame latencies lower than windows? windows always has cr/\p going on in the background, linux seems a lot quieter if not silent process wise when gaming?

I know Linux tends to be faster than Windows, so I'd wager that it does...But you never really know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminouslight View Post

That would highly depend on the distro. You could have a really slim set up, but the desktop experience would not likely compare to Windows.

Not really the distro, more which driver you're running, the audio subsystem (ALSA, Pulse, OSS, etc) and maybe network among other things, I'd say Linux probably is slightly lower around the board on nVidia (AMD is improving now Valve has Steam on Linux but that's about it) due to it being more efficient in general than Windows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKTGX95 View Post

well, thanks for the explanation. (everyday you learn something new. at a second read i kinda realized it does sound a bit silly but i already knew before it that it might be rubbish smile.gif )

but still i remember that there is still a problem with NV drivers when installing AMD ones. (as you have seen i'm not the best one at this but IIRC some registry files or something)

iirc that problem was nVidia artificially slowing down AMD cards, not due to a real incompatibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twitchyzero View Post

don't provide a smooth experience on the user end thumb.gif

Yeah...No. The problem has been mostly fixed as of Catalyst 13.2 beta, as far as I can tell.
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post #86 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

2010. Pretty old in computing years.

36 months in computer hardware these days aren't considered aged especially given how the console generation cycle has prolonged parts the last few years.

36 months in the mobile industry though? That's definitely pre-historic.
     
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post #87 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcg75 View Post

Great to see AMD taking the frametime issue so seriously.

Especially when we have a few on OCN that claim it either doesn't exist or isn't important. rolleyes.gif
Very true, good to see they acknowledge it exists even is some die hard AMD fans dont want to, and are working to fix it smile.gif
post #88 of 152
Good read. Everyone should give this a read before jumping into a GPU forum.
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post #89 of 152
Very good read smile.gif Very well written.
 
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post #90 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by twitchyzero View Post

36 months in computer hardware these days aren't considered aged especially given how the console generation cycle has prolonged parts the last few years.

36 months in the mobile industry though? That's definitely pre-historic.

The first Intel 6 cores launched in 2010, as did the Socket 1155 quad cores...It's still old, even if the industry has slowed a little. Back then, 6GB was thought of as overkill whereas now 4GB is minimum, 8GB normal. Hard Drives were at 2TB (Now at 4TB) and Samsung had just launched the Spinpoint F3.
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