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[Various] Nvidia GTX 650Ti Boost Reviews - Page 30

post #291 of 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Always can count on Alatar to swing the bat for Nvidia. rolleyes.gif This statement is total rubbish and you know it. I'd argue that the 7970 is far more powerful a flagship for AMD this generation than the 6970 ever was. Even now my own personal testing shows the 7970 hanging pretty tough with Titan and having a clear advantage over the 680. You have no earthly clue why Nvidia chose to mothball GK100 so I have no idea why you think they could have just released it as the 680? They probably wanted to avoid the catastrophe that was the GTX 480. Nothing AMD did stopped Nvidia from putting out their large die powerhouse; Nvidia themselves just decided that the small, efficient die strategy was more profitable (something AMD has known for years).

Don't forget I have owned and tested BOTH setups extensively and harbor no biases one way or the other. I get sick of seeing the same people posting the same misinformation over and over again out of brand loyalty. Its especially disturbing from supposedly impartial moderators. Face it, Tahiti was and still is a great GPU and even now with the mighty GK110 having released, it is far from irrelevant...

Uh, it's a fact that GTX 680 was a GTX 670Ti before. GK100 was broken, never released. nVidia kept going with GTX 680 as a flagship because it could compete. AMD actually never tried building a big chip after R600. nVidia's strategy is still build'em big. As long as Intel remains in their vision this will not change.

6970 was on the same node. Compared to the 4870 and 5870, the 7970 was regular. Kepler is a greater design win from a gaming perspective. I've yet to see more of GK110 to judge compute and geometry.
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post #292 of 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

If it's so great, why were you so eager to switch away from it?

Regardless of the reasons of why NVIDIA did what they did, fact remains that GK104 a midrange chip, was used to compete with AMD's highend offerings.

Yeah its the mid range chip of kepler architecture. But that doesnt mean that amd released an underpowered chip thats why nvidia choose to release gk104 as a gtx680. GK100 wasnt ready so they oced to the moon their mid range chip.There is a difference between wasnt ready and amd released an underpowered product
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post #293 of 512
Thread Starter 
You know what the only reason was for NV releasing GF100 for $500? AMD.

You know what the only reason was for NV to drop GTX 280 (GT200) price? AMD.

You know what the only reason was for NV to be able to charge $850 for the 8800 ultra? Lack of competition from AMD.

You know what the only reason was for NV to be able to charge $1000 for the Titan and use GK104 for high end cards? I think you can guess this one yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

This statement is total rubbish and you know it.

No it's not, there's nothing inaccurate about it. If there is please do say what.
Quote:
I'd argue that the 7970 is far more powerful a flagship for AMD this generation than the 6970 ever was.

Based on what? Based on the jump to it from the 6970 being smaller than the one from the 4890 to the 5870? Based on the high power consumption? I don't see it.
Quote:
Even now my own personal testing shows the 7970 hanging pretty tough with Titan and having a clear advantage over the 680.

Depends on what hanging pretty tough with a Titan means. I guess that means that the GTX580 hangs pretty well with a 7970. Sure the 7970 is faster than the 680, I doubt you will find many people who would deny that.
Quote:
You have no earthly clue why Nvidia chose to mothball GK100 so I have no idea why you think they could have just released it as the 680?

Perhaps not at the time of the 680 launch but lots of Titan chips are from late summer/early autumn (and this is after a complete refresh of the chip, it would most likely have been possible to bring it out faster if needed at the cost of leakier chips). It would just have been another fermi situation where NV was late.
Quote:
They probably wanted to avoid the catastrophe that was the GTX 480.

Well obviously, if they had to choose between that and losing terribly to AMD chips I'm sure we agree that they'd take the 480 route again. And as I said losing to AMD badly with GK104 would have forced NV to go with the 480 route, late or not.
Quote:
Nothing AMD did stopped Nvidia from putting out their large die powerhouse; Nvidia themselves just decided that the small, efficient die strategy was more profitable (something AMD has known for years).

They could compete with a design that makes them more money, of course they're going to use it, that's the entire crux of the argument you're so much against.
Quote:
Don't forget I have owned and tested BOTH setups extensively and harbor no biases one way or the other.

Doesn't really matter at all when talking about the GPU market in general. That has nothing to do with user experience. Besides, I own about twice the amount of AMD cards than NV ones.
Quote:
I get sick of seeing the same people posting the same misinformation over and over again out of brand loyalty. Its especially disturbing from supposedly impartial moderators.

Mods are users too, we can have opinions, we can discuss things. We don't have to only say "good AMD", "good NV", "good EA". I however keep my opinions entirely separate from my moderating duties.
Quote:
Face it, Tahiti was and still is a great GPU

Never said it wasn't, the first iteration of GCN (tahiti) just wasn't as big of a leap as Kepler (the biggest one since G80) was.
Quote:
and even now with the mighty GK110 having released, it is far from irrelevant...

Well of course, the price points of the GPUs somewhat make this obvious.


I will quote myself:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Okay guys here's the deal:

Nvidia actually wants to price their big dies (500mm^2+) higher than $500. This is because they're very expensive, have a lot of R&D money put into them and have low yields.

What made the 480 and 580 cost $500 then? Competition.

Let's look at the circumstances at the launch of the past pew NV flagships:

GTX 280: Huge die, priced at $650 with basic high end GPU features, has to drop in price very soon because of AMD releasing a GTX 260 matching 4870 for ~$300. NV has to stay competitive and was relying on their high end GPU for the mainstream stuff as well, they have to lower the price in order to sell it because G92 isn't cutting it anymore.

GTX 285: Same story but without the initial high price because of AMD already having their cards out. Only shrinking the process and a bit higher OCs and better thermals aren't enough to price it much above the then discounted 280. NV is still using G92 for their lower end parts and has to still manage some of the mainstream ($300 range) with the expensive GT200b. GT200b did though save them from making a nearly 600mm^2 die for mainstream cards which is probably the reason for why it was even die shrinked. The price can't go higher because of AMD's 4890.

GTX 480: Again a massive die, card is massively late, hogs more power than ever seen before (single GPU) and has lots of bad publicity even before launch. The performance barely warrants the $500 price compared to the $400 5870. NV tries to market the card with more VRAM, CUDA, PhysX etc. They also have to use the die for 470s and 465s again making it a mainstream chip as well. This isn't a choice, it's a must for them because of AMD's product range. The smaller GF104 appears much later and is no match for AMD's products and can't be used to counter high end products.

GTX 580: NV is unaware of what AMD might release after seeing the 5870 matching 6870 (well almost). The 580 provides 10% increase over the older 480 while actually decreasing the die just a tad, improving thermals etc. They can't price it much higher than their own card because the 400 series wasn't even selling well and the 5870 had been discounted to around $370. a $500 price is set as a counter to possible future AMD GPUs, however the 6970 that was originally planned as a $500 card (leaks showing listings from different etailers etc. showed this) barely matches the 480 and can't compete with the 580, AMD has to price the card similarly to the discounted 5870.

At this point NV saw how important the GF104, GF114, GK104 die was due to the huge volume of sales they produced. A decision is made to give the mainstream chip more attention so it will be on the market sooner.

GTX 680: This time NV already knows the performance of the 7970 which has launched at an expensive $550. Multiple leaks originating from before 7970 era launch plans of NV (drivers, early cooler images etc) show GK104 being introduced as GTX670Ti due to NV thinking it can't match a single 7970. After seeing how AMD's new card performs and where it is priced though NV can bump the name of GK104 up to GTX 680 and grab a big portion of the high end GPU market by releasing it at $500. GK100 is either failed or too expensive to use for anything at this point. Being able to compete with a smaller die, GK104, is a huge plus for NV who have achieved a much bigger jump in performance than AMD (per mm^2), the biggest jump since G80 in fact. Added plus is the GK104 memory controller that blows even NV engineers away and makes it possible for the GK104 to function as a high end GPU even in situations that might need high bandwidth. After this AMD launches a price war, bundle war, renaming war and a driver war to make their lineup more lucrative but the damage has already been done and the 600 series has very good rep outside the enthusiast scene.

GTX Titan: GK110 is expensive to produce, supercomputer firms, universities, etc. are screaming for GK110 based teslas which NV provides as soon as they have tens of thousands of GK110s that have low enough leakage and enough working SMXs. K20s are being sold in late september before the launch of the official cards. One of the customers is the Titan supercomputer, needing around 16,000 units.
As usual NV intends to sell the more leaky chips as GeForce ones as has been speculated for well over half a year. Nvidia has a card that can without any trouble beat a 680 and a 7970, the performance difference is much bigger than anything we've seen before, high enough that the card doesn't have any competition at all in the single GPU arena, even less so than the 580. On top of this the card is also almost 100% sure to not have any single GPU competition in the next year or even after that because of AMD and NV being stuck on the 28nm process. Nvidia has also been catching flak for bad compute features lately.
Nvidia doesn't need this expensive chip to compete with AMD and thus has no intentions of releasing it as a normal card part of their normal naming scheme and lineup. That task is reserved for GK114 most likely. However the performance doesn't quite warrant the price of a halo-card-esque pricing of the 690. A decision is made to still release GK110 as Titan for $999 but to load the card with features to make up for the performance that isn't quite up there with the 690. The cooler is similar, users will have full overclocking abilities, etc. And on top of this DP performance is left untouched making the card lucrative for individuals who wish to do GPGPU work but unattractive for big companies. The card is also a huge marketing tool which shows when looking at the emphasis on thermals and OEM systems like those of Origin PC's maingear's etc. The card will enhance NV's brand by setting all the records and being the best. A high price will only reinforce this effect even if it might be bad for the average consumer.
Titan is a product of no competition in the same performance range at all aside from multi GPU setups which don't really matter due to Titan being able to do 4-way SLI, taking less space, being quieter, having the ability to be installed in SFF builds etc.


Pricing has everything to do with the competition. Everything.

So no, your $500 high end GPU isn't going anywhere. If AMD releases the 8970 or the 9970 as powerful enough to make using GK114 or GM104 impossible, NV will be forced to use GK110 or GM100 for normal GPUs. And unless AMD pulls a miracle out of their ass (something like the next version of pitcairn/smaller level chips performing on the level or above NV GK114/GM104) they can't price their cards higher either.

The only thing that allows TItan to be priced at $999 is the huge jump in performance made with kepler. If the manufacturers want to keep raising prices they have to be able to make lower end chips handily outperform previous high end chips. This might have happened once or twice but it is not by any definition the norm and in normal circumstances a price hike of the extreme high end products isn't possible. Due to the huge advances made with kepler NV is most likely going to struggle with Maxwell when trying to maintain similar advances in performance of their chips (they hit the jackpot once, now a new architecture that is better than an incredible one is very hard to do). The jump will most likely be smaller forcing the price of the top of the line chip down. This is of course assuming that AMD keeps putting out GPUs at a steady pace.

That's what happened pricing wise in the high end GPU industry in the last few years.

Since it supports my earlier statement 100% I ask that you tell me what is wrong with the quote.
 
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post #294 of 512
Alatar..... teaching.gif

I love reading a good debate. smile.gif
post #295 of 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarhell View Post

Yeah its the mid range chip of kepler architecture. But that doesnt mean that amd released an underpowered chip thats why nvidia choose to release gk104 as a gtx680. GK100 wasnt ready so they oced to the moon their mid range chip.There is a difference between wasnt ready and amd released an underpowered product

No, there was nothing wrong with the 7970. It's the same as what the 5870 did in the time. I think Kepler's design win was just greater this gen. I don't think the 680 was clocked that high though. Maybe +/- 100MHz if you look at Titan's clock. It also had quite some room left.

A product that has been clocked to the moon previously was the 8800Ultra. Binned like hell and limited in availability.
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post #296 of 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarhell View Post

Yeah its the mid range chip of kepler architecture. But that doesnt mean that amd released an underpowered chip thats why nvidia choose to release gk104 as a gtx680. GK100 wasnt ready so they oced to the moon their mid range chip.There is a difference between wasnt ready and amd released an underpowered product

No one can deny that GK100 wasn't ready, and that GK104 was clocked to its near limits to become a 680 and be able to compete with the 7970.

At the end of the day, it's still a midrange chip, and GK110's only offering right now is a $1000.

If AMD had something better on the table right now, like an 8970 that's 20% faster than a 7970 GE, NVIDIA wouldn't be able to get away with a $1000 Titan. Make sense? We'd likely have some sort of GK110 card with ok compute, 3 GB RAM at the $500 - $600 mark.
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post #297 of 512
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

No, there was nothing wrong with the 7970. It's the same as what the 5870 did in the time. I think Kepler's design win was just greater this gen.

Exactly this.

The jump from Fermi to Kepler is huge. Most people don't actually realize this since they don't realize that the 580 they replaced with the next gen 294mm^2 NV part has a 520mm^2 GPU in it.

Tahiti isn't bad, Kepler is just pretty phenomenal
 
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[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
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2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
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post #298 of 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

No, there was nothing wrong with the 7970. It's the same as what the 5870 did in the time. I think Kepler's design win was just greater this gen. I don't think the 680 was clocked that high though. Maybe +/- 100MHz if you look at Titan's clock. It also had quite some room left.

A product that has been clocked to the moon previously was the 8800Ultra. Binned like hell and limited in availability.

Actually you dont know how high they can boost. For example my reference gtx670 on my htpc can boost up to 1150-1175~..Compare it the original 7970 (925 core) is a bit high.
Like if you oc your 7870 at 1.15 cant compete with the 7970.Its the same situation.I know I cant really compare clocks between different architectures but i believe 7970 was a bit underclocked on the release and gtx 680 released like months later.You can easily adjust a bit better your clocks against the competition. And then nvidia add the boost feature. Interesting and clever way to win the stock reviews but a pain for the overclockers
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post #299 of 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Exactly this.

The jump from Fermi to Kepler is huge. Most people don't actually realize this since they don't realize that the 580 they replaced with the next gen 294mm^2 NV part has a 520mm^2 GPU in it.

Tahiti isn't bad, Kepler is just pretty phenomenal

This is why I never considered the 680 to be the 580's true replacement. Titan is.
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post #300 of 512
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

This is why I never considered the 680 to be the 580's true replacement. Titan is.

And before anyone jumps on this comment, it's not about the pricing, it's about a comparable GPUs on different architectures.

Pricing (and as an extension product names) is only determined by performance compared to competing brands.
 
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[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
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test bench / cardboard box 
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