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[Various] Nvidia GTX 650Ti Boost Reviews - Page 32

post #311 of 512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Alatar, how do you figure that the jump from Fermi to Kepler was so much more amazing than the jump from Cayman to Tahiti?

Because the jump in perf/watt was bigger, the jump in perf/mm^2 was bigger, quite simple really. Again this does not mean that tahiti is bad, it just means that fermi was lackluster and Kepler was a huge improvement.
Quote:
I mean, the 580 was a huge die GF110 which was then demolished by the small die GK104 (which is the basis for your argument right?). Well, I'd argue that the 7970 is also a small die chip that demolished the large die 580 well before Nvidia could even hope to get Kepler out.

Yes but that just shows fermi being weak, doesn't say anything about Kepler.

And again, this is about what NV did with kepler, tahiti beating the 580 (well it should...) doesn't really have anything to do with how NV managed to compete with a 294mm^2 die this time instead of the big 500mm^2+ one.
Quote:
What's more, Tahiti had to improve a whole lot more over the 6970 than the 680 had to improve over the 580. Yet somehow the 7970 was "disappointing" or "less than what Nvidia expected"? How so? What could Nvidia have possibly been expecting from the successor to Cayman? They knew all along that AMD was not going with a massive die.

Improve a lot more in what sense? Adding compute features? That's their problem as much as it was a problem for NV with fermi that was built from the ground up for GPGPU.
Quote:
Everything you quoted yourself saying earlier is your supposition, nothing more. The idea that Nvidia was sitting around one day when the 7970 released and said "Hey, that 7970 is no where near as powerful as we thought it would be (even though it crushes our current flagship GF110 chip at a much lower power consumption level). We should just use GK104 to compete..." is laughable.

Of course the 7970 beat the 580 with lower power consumption it was on 28nm after all, not 40nm. Same goes for the 680 though and in a much more drastic sense.

And no there is nothing laughable about saying that they were going to use GK104 to compete and the decision was made after the 7970 launched. The 680 was originally supposed to be named 670Ti as has been stated many times and if AMD's chips had been faster NV would just have had to be late with introducing Some early GK110 or leaky GK100 to the market. That is what they have done in the past, except this time GK104 and GK100 was designed and built at the same time instead of focusing on the big die first.
Quote:
The only facts we have are that GK100 was scrapped and GK110 would never have been ready in time to compete with Tahiti. That's it. I never said that GK104 wasn't a smaller chip that was clocked to the nines to become the new flagship but that was Nvidia's decision and had nothing to do with AMD...

Yes it did, they priced it at $500 because the performance of their competitior's GPUs allowed them to. This is what happens each generation with GPUs why would it be different this time?

Because of having acceptable perf with the 680 they didn't have to quickly make more chips to compete with AMD. As I said evem a lot of Titan chips (which are GK110 that was highly refined compared to something like GF100) are from late summer / early autumn. Had NV needed a card as string as Titan they could have released in smaller quantities back then which was only around 6-8 months after Tahiti not much more than Fermi was late. Had they wanted to release a 13 SMX part they could most likely have done it faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Oh please. Now you're basing your theory on leaked naming schemes? There could be a million different marketing reasons why Nvidia decided against calling it the 670Ti in the end.

The only reason to name GK104 680 instead of 670Ti was that it could compete with Tahiti. It's all about competition, the GPU manufacturers don't just go and do what they want. If AMD releases first, NV's release will be reactionary, and so on.

Quote:
That proves absolutely nothing. And honestly your post makes the Fermi to Kepler transition seem less impressive, not more.

This makes no sense, architecturally it's the biggest jump since G80.
Quote:
All I'm saying is there is no basis in fact that GK100 or 110 were EVER going to become the GTX 680 regardless of what AMD released.

Yes there is, NV has had to do it a lot in the past, pretty much all generations have had NV use their big die. It's just simple business 101 that they would use a cheaper to manufacture product when possible.

If AMD forced NV to release something faster then they would unless they are unable to do so because of transistor budgets or something (the situation where AMD is atm)
Quote:
Nvidia had to use GK104 for their flagship at the time because that's what they had.

As I've stated previously they could have brought out even the GK110 used in the Titan some 6-8 months after Tahiti launch, just like what happened with fermi. Nothing states that the GPU they bring out first has to be the flagship or named the 680, indeed it wasn't supposed to be (670Ti) but then the 7970 launched and the naming scheme got changed.

Yet again, NV would just have been late with the bigger die had AMD managed to get more performance out of Tahiti.
Quote:
The only reason Nvidia guys keep bringing up this fantasy is because it makes them feel better to try and insinuate that AMD is so hopeless that Nvidia can release crap from the dustbin and still compete. The only problem is that its utter nonsense. The 7970 was an impressive upgrade to Cayman and compares well with any generational upgrade that I can think of.

No one is saying AMD is hopeless, we've said a bunch of times that Tahiti is just fine (not as big of a jump as Cypress for example but just fine). The thing is that you refuse to accept facts (perf/W, perf/mm^2 between kepler and fermi) and see that Kepler is just a bigger jump. There's nothing about being an "Nvidia guy" in saying that.
Quote:
If Nvidia was really laughing so hard at how pathetic the 7970 was when it released how come even now over a year later the Titan is not blowing the doors off of it with GK110? Don't get me wrong, I love my Titans and they absolutely are hands down better cards, but the 7970 was a perfectly adequate release when it debuted and AMD continues to get significant performance out of it to this day...

30% is the biggest difference in recent memory when it comes to NV's big chip beating AMD's ~350mm^2 one. Even G80 wasn't that good. So yes on the same process, it is blowing the doors off. 30% is the sort of leap you get with new generations on a new process. I'll compare it to the 580 and 7970 again, do you also think that the 7970 does not blow the doors off of the 580? Because the difference there is the same as the difference between the Titan and the 7970GHz.
 
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post #312 of 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Oh please. Now you're basing your theory on leaked naming schemes? There could be a million different marketing reasons why Nvidia decided against calling it the 670Ti in the end. That proves absolutely nothing. And honestly your post makes the Fermi to Kepler transition seem less impressive, not more. All I'm saying is there is no basis in fact that GK100 or 110 were EVER going to become the GTX 680 regardless of what AMD released. Nvidia had to use GK104 for their flagship at the time because that's what they had. The only reason Nvidia guys keep bringing up this fantasy is because it makes them feel better to try and insinuate that AMD is so hopeless that Nvidia can release crap from the dustbin and still compete. The only problem is that its utter nonsense. The 7970 was an impressive upgrade to Cayman and compares well with any generational upgrade that I can think of.

If Nvidia was really laughing so hard at how pathetic the 7970 was when it released how come even now over a year later the Titan is not blowing the doors off of it with GK110? Don't get me wrong, I love my Titans and they absolutely are hands down better cards, but the 7970 was a perfectly adequate release when it debuted and AMD continues to get significant performance out of it to this day...

I get the feeling that this convo is becoming hostile Majin. No reason for that. I wasn't even making the transition from Fermi to Kepler sound impressive, that doesn't change the fact that Kepler has a large design win. Why do you keep telling me that the 7970 is not a weak card? I told you it did the same thing 5870 did in its time. And it even beats a 680 now. They probably would have went with the GTX 670Ti name if the 7970 GE was out at launch.

GK104 is built further on GF114. It practically doubles everything aside from ROPs, it has far more similarities to GF104/114 than GF100/110. It's true that it was the only thing available at the time, but it never should have been a 680 and a $499 card. Inital estimates for the GTX 670Ti were $349.

Just look at the Anand review. They analyse the architecture with respect to GF104/114. Which makes sense. That it beats GTX 580 in gaming is fine from nV's perspective and all but it's not a direct upgrade to it. There are drawbacks on geometry and computational power -- even on the uncapped FP32 consumer side mind you. This was really Fermi's focus. Kepler is just another form of Fermi but with some pipeline optimizations and maybe most important, a fixed memory controller.

Also, why would a GPU designed for a Tesla card, designed for high precision and reliable FP64/32, have that much TMUs and display viewports. Aside from that, why did the Tesla card only appear in winter 2012/2013? Not because nVidia didn't need it. It wasn't ready and they got away with that. It cetainly isn't true that they were laughing at AMD, at the time they were very anxious at briefings, since they failed delivering GK100 and even yields for GK104 didn't meet targets -- note that they aren't only interested in gaming performance and go laugh based on that. If I had to express nVidia's situation visually, I'd post a "That Went Better Than Expected" meme, but I'm not allowed to. There are however these sources:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphics/display/20120125232634_Nvidia_We_Expected_More_from_AMD_Radeon_HD_7970.html
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post #313 of 512
still on topic Alatar?
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post #314 of 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureBlackFire View Post

still on topic Alatar?

was there something in the discussion of the 650ti BOOST you thought was missing?

i personally don't disagree that discussions ought to stay within the realm of the topic listed in the thread, but there is also something to be said for folks expressing their informed opinion within reason.
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post #315 of 512
It's nice to see that more models of the 650 Ti-B are tricking into retail. Right now at Newegg, there's these six models in stock:

Zotac ZT-61201-10M (993/1059) $170
EVGA 02G-P4-3657-KR (980/1033) $170
Gigabyte GV-N65TBOC-2GD (1032/1098) $170
Galaxy 65NPH7DN7WGU (980/1033) $175
EVGA 02G-P4-3658-KR (1072/1137) $180
MSI N650TiTF2GD5/OC BE (1033/1098) $180

The MSI "Twin Frozr", Gigabyte "WindForce", and EVGA "Superclocked" models all look pretty good.

EDIT: Looks like the AMD 7790 models have just hit Newegg. There's 7 models in all, but the only 2GB version is the pre-overclocked (1075MHz vs. 1000 reference) Gigabyte GV-R779OC-2GD, which is $170.

Given the rather large performance difference between the 7790 and the 650 Ti-B, I'm not sure who's going to buy the 7790 however. Any AMD-minded person would likely get a 7850.
Edited by svenge - 3/30/13 at 12:38pm
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post #316 of 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenge View Post

It's nice to see that more models of the 650 Ti-B are tricking into retail. Right now at Newegg, there's these six models in stock:

Zotac ZT-61201-10M (993/1059) $170
EVGA 02G-P4-3657-KR (980/1033) $170
Gigabyte GV-N65TBOC-2GD (1032/1098) $170
Galaxy 65NPH7DN7WGU (980/1033) $175
EVGA 02G-P4-3658-KR (1072/1137) $180
MSI N650TiTF2GD5/OC BE (1033/1098) $180

The MSI "Twin Frozr", Gigabyte "WindForce", and EVGA "Superclocked" models all look pretty good.

EDIT: Looks like the AMD 7790 models have just hit Newegg. There's 7 models in all, but the only 2GB version is the Gigabyte GV-R779OC-2GD, which is $170.

As usual asus is nowhere to be found
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post #317 of 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stay Puft View Post

As usual asus is nowhere to be found

Yeah, that is odd, especially since we know that they're releasing a Direct CU II model of it (based on TPU's review).

What makes it even stranger is that they have a 1GB 7790 at Newegg currently, and the 7790 had a later release-to-market date.

And the last thing that makes me shake my head is that they're the only one of the "big three" non-exclusive AIB makers (ASUS, Gigabyte, and MSI) to not have a 650 Ti-B in yet.

Then again, MSI's 7790 card(s) aren't in yet either unlike ASUS and Gigabyte, so maybe it's just minor logistical issues or something.
Edited by svenge - 3/30/13 at 6:49am
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post #318 of 512
It Seems Nivdia is trying to beat AMD prices by release these cards
post #319 of 512
just an FYI on pcper:
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/Frame-Rating-GeForce-GTX-Titan-GeForce-GTX-690-Radeon-HD-7990-HD-7970-Cross-6
Quote:
Because of the complexity and sheer amount of data we have gathered using our Frame Rating performance methodology, we are breaking it up into several articles that each feature different GPU comparisons. Here is the schedule:

3/27: Frame Rating Dissected: Full Details on Capture-based Graphics Performance Testing
3/27: Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition vs GeForce GTX 680 (Single and Dual GPU)
3/29: AMD Radeon HD 7990 vs GeForce GTX 690 vs GeForce GTX Titan
3/31: Radeon HD 7950 vs GeForce GTX 660 Ti (Single and Dual GPU)
4/2: Radeon HD 7870 GHz Edition vs GeForce GTX 660 (Single and Dual GPU)
4/4: Radeon HD 7850 vs Radeon HD 7790 vs GeForce GTX 650 Ti vs GeForce GTX 650 Ti BOOST
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post #320 of 512
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureBlackFire View Post

still on topic Alatar?

No but I enjoyed the debate too much

Besides, look at the last few posts, back on topic tongue.gif
 
Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
  hide details  
Reply
 
Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
  hide details  
Reply
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