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Please, check out my SFF PC!

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
So, here it is on PCPartPicker.

I put some notes in the bottom section to explain the insane $2,600k price tag and why I chose some of the parts I did.

Please let me know if these wouldn't work together. I'm pretty sure the GTX670 FTW+ will fit in this case, but only so.

I want to use this for gaming away from home, and that's about it; no other reason to build it.

Thanks!

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post #2 of 25
The SG05 and SSG06 fits the same size graphics card, even though the SG06 has bigger externals, due to the extended front face. It should fir the GTX 670 just fine since that card is 10" deep and the case fits something like 10¼". However, I would not buy that graphics card. For around the same money you can get a GTX 680 like this one that is only 10" long and will fit. The extra VRAM won't help you at all until you hit super high resolutions, which you won't unless you use a 2560x1440 or 2560x1600 resolution monitor, or do surround gaming with triple monitors. You may as well save over $100 and get a normal 2GB GTX 670. Heck, if you are primarily gaming at 720p on your projector or using borrowed monitors, GTX 660 Ti pricing starts a whopping $200 less than your FTW+ and at those resolutions you won't notice that much difference.

If you use the liquid cooler, you can't use the drive bays in that case. There is room to mount the SSD elsewhere using double sided tape or Velcro tape, but you won't be able to fit the optical drive. Either way I would ditch the optical drive unless it is something you really, really need (not a "nice to have"). If you really need one, you may need to go with a USB drive.

Just for better portability (AKA weight) I would suggest just going with the stock CPU cooler and forgo the overclocking. This way you can also go with a much cheaper motherboard, like a $100 H77 chipset board. If you are wary of the push pins of the stock cooler you can use a bolt-through kit from just about any manufacturer. You basically need a backplate, screws that go into the backplate and springs for the screws like this kit. Besides keeping the cooler from ever falling off on its own (great for traveling) it also usually applies more pressure, thus making the stock cooler perform better.

You don't need the extra fans. The case comes with a decent Silverstone "golf ball" fan and even if you go with the liquid cooler, it comes with a fan already. Those Corsair SP120 fans run almost 2400RPM, and will be super noisy at that speed.

Even if you end up overclocking with the liquid cooler, feel free to go with a cheaper motherboard such as the ASRock or MSI. Both of those overclock as well as the Asus. The big selling point of the Asus is that they moved some of the VRMs off the motherboard onto that little daughtercard. This allowed them to move the CPU socket away from the graphics card, which helps if you use a big air cooler. Liquid cooling? Save the $40 or so.

I've seen people run out of battery juice many times on wireless mice and once on a wireless keyboard at LAN parties, plus I've heard people in Teamspeak go "oh crap, batteries dying." That's why I would never use wireless devices for gaming. But that's just personal preference.
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Core i5-3570K ASRock Z77E-ITX GeForce GTX 670 8GB Samsung DDR3 
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Intel 330 240GB SSD, Crucial M4 256GB mSATA SSD... Samsung DVDRW CoolIt Eco Windows 7 Home Premium x64 
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Samsung 305T Plus, Dell 2005FPW Cooler Master QuickFire Pro mechanical keyboard Rosewill Capstone 450W Lian Li PC-Q11B 
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Intel 330 240GB SSD, Crucial M4 256GB mSATA SSD... Samsung DVDRW CoolIt Eco Windows 7 Home Premium x64 
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Samsung 305T Plus, Dell 2005FPW Cooler Master QuickFire Pro mechanical keyboard Rosewill Capstone 450W Lian Li PC-Q11B 
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post #3 of 25
I thought I had some stuff to say too, but Zap's covered it all smile.gif
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post #4 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The SG05 and SSG06 fits the same size graphics card, even though the SG06 has bigger externals, due to the extended front face. It should fir the GTX 670 just fine since that card is 10" deep and the case fits something like 10¼". However, I would not buy that graphics card. For around the same money you can get a GTX 680 like this one that is only 10" long and will fit. The extra VRAM won't help you at all until you hit super high resolutions, which you won't unless you use a 2560x1440 or 2560x1600 resolution monitor, or do surround gaming with triple monitors. You may as well save over $100 and get a normal 2GB GTX 670. Heck, if you are primarily gaming at 720p on your projector or using borrowed monitors, GTX 660 Ti pricing starts a whopping $200 less than your FTW+ and at those resolutions you won't notice that much difference.

If you use the liquid cooler, you can't use the drive bays in that case. There is room to mount the SSD elsewhere using double sided tape or Velcro tape, but you won't be able to fit the optical drive. Either way I would ditch the optical drive unless it is something you really, really need (not a "nice to have"). If you really need one, you may need to go with a USB drive.

Just for better portability (AKA weight) I would suggest just going with the stock CPU cooler and forgo the overclocking. This way you can also go with a much cheaper motherboard, like a $100 H77 chipset board. If you are wary of the push pins of the stock cooler you can use a bolt-through kit from just about any manufacturer. You basically need a backplate, screws that go into the backplate and springs for the screws like this kit. Besides keeping the cooler from ever falling off on its own (great for traveling) it also usually applies more pressure, thus making the stock cooler perform better.

You don't need the extra fans. The case comes with a decent Silverstone "golf ball" fan and even if you go with the liquid cooler, it comes with a fan already. Those Corsair SP120 fans run almost 2400RPM, and will be super noisy at that speed.

Even if you end up overclocking with the liquid cooler, feel free to go with a cheaper motherboard such as the ASRock or MSI. Both of those overclock as well as the Asus. The big selling point of the Asus is that they moved some of the VRMs off the motherboard onto that little daughtercard. This allowed them to move the CPU socket away from the graphics card, which helps if you use a big air cooler. Liquid cooling? Save the $40 or so.

I've seen people run out of battery juice many times on wireless mice and once on a wireless keyboard at LAN parties, plus I've heard people in Teamspeak go "oh crap, batteries dying." That's why I would never use wireless devices for gaming. But that's just personal preference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiSK View Post

I thought I had some stuff to say too, but Zap's covered it all smile.gif

Haha; well thank you both for all of your input! biggrin.gif

You make a good point about the GPU; I guess initially I was going for the 4GB VRAM to gain a little more future proof-ness at a cheaper price than I would get for a 4GB 680. On my desktop build, with three 3GB 580s in SLI, I've seen Skyrim get close to using all of the memory with all of the mods I have loaded into it displaying to a single 1080p monitor. I would like to ride out this single card as long as possible, even after attempts to overclock it to its limit don't seem to keep up. Do you still recommend only 2GB?

I think, at the least, I would like to get this card for $299.99 after a MIR; however, I do appreciate recommendations.

Regarding the drive bays: Thanks for letting me know! I tried to figure out the inside of the case as best I could by looking at pictures of others' builds using it, but they were all so crowded and none of them addressed having to remove the cage.

I also don't need the optical drive. These days, even if I do buy the game from the store in DVD format, we have to log into something to get the full package or to even start the darn game (which really sucks out here in Afghanland; haven't been able to play a single Steam game on the little down time I do get). I will ditch the optical drive. I may throw in a secondary storage drive, probably a HDD that's lying around; but, even that would be unnecessary. Really, the Intel 250GB SSD will suffice, and it gives me a reason to ditch it from my primary system and get something better later (thinking of doing a RAID 0 SSD setup for the main rig).

Regarding the motherboard: The Asus does seem like it's a bit expensive. I did not really know which mobo to purchase and just went with the one that had the most reviews (which was actually just the standard deluxe version; I was going to get the WD version because it was only $5 more).

I have changed my mind and am looking at this MSI board (which isn't on PCPartPicker's list for whatever reason) - good choice?

The weight won't bother me at all; I just want something small enough to fit in my Mystery Ranch pack. And, this, being the smallest case I could find that would fit a reasonably powerful GPU, is pushing the boarder. It's going to be hilarious when I pull this thing out of my pack at the airline's security gate and throw it in a tub to be scanned...

I like the Corsair water solutions. Since I'd like to stick with an all-in-one loop, do you think the H55 is a good choice? It has thinner, more flexible hoses than the H60. I didn't think the H80i's radiator would fit in the case, so I didn't even consider it.

I opted for the two pack of static pressure fans to do a push/pull on the radiator... will there be enough room for that? I saw it done in the SG06, so I'm assuming it would work. I planned on using the included fan as the front intake on the SG05. I actually wasn't sure about fans on this case at all. Aside from the front intake (which I'm guessing will be covered by the push/pull radiator setup if that's where it goes?), where else is there to place any fans and what size would they be? Are additional fans even needed in such a small space? With a blower type GPU, the PSU having its own fan (ideally exhausting out of the top if possible), and the CPU being cooled by the push/pull, would I need more airflow? Should I instead get the "Quiet Edition" static pressure fans? If I do, will I be able to still overclock and not see any uncomfortably high temps? Recommendations?

Also, now that I'm guessing the radiator has to be mounted to the front intake position, will my Corsair Vengeance RAM sticks go unhindered? I can purchase separate, low profile RAM if needed, but I already have 16GB of this RAM laying around. While on the subject of RAM, would I be able to push these 1600MHz sticks to, say, 1866 or even 2133MHz with the i7 2600k and the MSI mobo without having any issues?

The Logitech G700 has a quick USB connect if it ever came close to dieing, but I've never not monitored battery life before and I meticulous keep spare Eneloop batteries charged just in case. I don't think I'd ever be in that situation anyways; I'm no professional.

I have a Noppoo Choc Mini 84 mechanical keyboard as my main for use at home. I only opted to get the Bluetooth Logitech for its slim profile. I could easily stash this in my pack along with the projector, mouse, PC, etc. Plus, I like that I can use it with my tablet, PS3, and the PC all without needing to reconnect. Not to mention, it also comes with a USB quick connect and battery indicator.

And, finally, I forgot to include the much needed sound department... I'm sure the on-board audio is probably crap, so I've decided I'll bring along an old external sound card I bought from Creative with a pair of Sony monitors and a small attachable Zalman microphone. Here is the updated list.

Sorry for the super long response; I just wanna make sure I've got all my bases covered before I purchase everything and put it all together. Thank you VERY MUCH for your help!

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post #5 of 25
Thread Starter 
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Bump*
post #6 of 25
Oh hi. I would have liked to help earlier, but had to find the time to read your story and really try to understand exactly what your questions are.

- GPU: If you are using >2GB in your current GPUs, then it should follow to get the 3 or 4GB card then. As I understand it, the 670 is better for overclocking than 660 Ti. I have the latter in my FT03-mini but didn't OC it because I'm using it for folding.
- Motherboard: MSI is fine. From the Z77 mITX cards, the one to avoid is the Gigabyte.
- Fans: In the past case manufacturers just threw any old thing into the box. Regardless of suitability for task. Silverstone and Corsair are not like that. The case fan that comes with the SG05 is a good case fan: plenty of pressure, quiet at low PWM setting, but can ramp up if you need it. It would function very well as the "pull" with an H60. The Corsair stock fan is also very good. It has to be because Corsair knows that review sites will not often do their temp/noise testing with a GT or Noctua instead. I have push pull in my SG05 using the older model H60. Both fans are PWM on the quiet setting in the BIOS. Temps are under 60C while folding. So that cooling has been running quietly at max CPU stress 24/7 for 14 months now. No need to buy something else.
- PSU: You wrote "(ideally exhausting out of the top if possible)". The whole design of the SG05 is that it works like a wind tunnel. Air comes in at the front, directly into the motherboard area, and exhausted immediately through the PSU out the back. This is a very efficient idea, helps to ensure that warmth from CPU and chipset isn't forced over into the GPU area. The ST45SF was designed to operate up to 50C for this very reason.

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post #7 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiSK View Post

Fans: In the past case manufacturers just threw any old thing into the box. Regardless of suitability for task. Silverstone and Corsair are not like that. The case fan that comes with the SG05 is a good case fan: plenty of pressure, quiet at low PWM setting, but can ramp up if you need it. It would function very well as the "pull" with an H60. The Corsair stock fan is also very good. It has to be because Corsair knows that review sites will not often do their temp/noise testing with a GT or Noctua instead. I have push pull in my SG05 using the older model H60. Both fans are PWM on the quiet setting in the BIOS. Temps are under 60C while folding. So that cooling has been running quietly at max CPU stress 24/7 for 14 months now. No need to buy something else.

I planned on getting the H55 for it's slimmer tubes; the H55 does not come with the good SP fan that the H60 does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiSK View Post

PSU: You wrote "(ideally exhausting out of the top if possible)". The whole design of the SG05 is that it works like a wind tunnel. Air comes in at the front, directly into the motherboard area, and exhausted immediately through the PSU out the back. This is a very efficient idea, helps to ensure that warmth from CPU and chipset isn't forced over into the GPU area. The ST45SF was designed to operate up to 50C for this very reason.

From what Silverstone's tech support has told me, the SG05 only has one position where one could mount an H50/55/60 - being the front intake. I don't think it would be wise for me to have cool air pulling into the hot radiator and then being pushed into the case... then that hot air would be pulled up into the PSU's intake if it were mounted upright. Their tech support suggested I mount the PSU upside down and have it pull in cool air from up top and exhaust it out the back, as it's not possible to change the direction of the fan. So, overall there wouldn't be any actual intakes cooling the inside of the case; but, the PSU will be cooled by its own intake, the CPU will be cooled by the push/pull on the radiator exhausting outward, and the GPU I want to get has a blower type fan, pulling air in from the perforated side and exhausting the hot air out the back next to the PSU. Do you suggest having the push/pull reversed and bring cool air from outside through the radiator and bringing the subsequent hot air into the case?

Thanks for your input... I'm still waiting for a little more feedback before I purchase everything. Though, I think my posts are too long for anyone to want to read. (understandable) redface.gif
post #8 of 25
I am surprised that Silverstone support recommend to reverse the fan. There is no fan filter at the top and PSUs are impossible to clean from dust without voiding the warranty. Dust will make it harder for the heat to dissipate. But I'm curious what they said exactly? Could you copy their message here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturnal Link View Post

I don't think it would be wise for me to have cool air pulling into the hot radiator and then being pushed into the case... then that hot air would be pulled up into the PSU's intake if it were mounted upright.

Depending on speed of fans, air coming through the radiator will be approx. 5C lower than the temperature of the radiator. The radiator temp will be approx. equal to the coolant. A misunderstanding many people have is that coolant temp will be close to the CPU cores temps. It won't. Assuming ambient room temp around 25C and CPU cores loaded at 60C, then coolant temp on an H55 might be 35-40C, and so the exhaust air from the radiator will be 30-35C. This will feel warm to your hand, but it's not "hot". Moreover, it's cooler than the CPU and motherboard chips and, if you use the PSU to draw it away again immediately, motherboard temps will remain surprisingly low (~40C). If you don't use PSU to make the wind tunnel effect, then the warm air will blow around the case, possibly not in an optimal way.

However, don't take my word for it smile.gif

Best thing to do is try it yourself. When you first install the rig, put fans to slow exhaust, run prime95 for 30mins and observe temps. Then load the GPU for 5 mins and see how temps develop. Then game for 30mins and check temps again. Once you are confident you know highest temps of CPU, GPU, motherboard in that set up, then turn the fans to slow intake and check again. Third test is, turn the PSU so fan is downwards and check again. Since you measured all with fans on slow, then you will know worst case scenario. Finally use an oral thermometer against the metal of the back of the PSU to measure. If it's over the scale of the thermometer (>45C) then probably best to turn it fan up again smile.gif
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post #9 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiSK View Post

I am surprised that Silverstone support recommend to reverse the fan. There is no fan filter at the top and PSUs are impossible to clean from dust without voiding the warranty. Dust will make it harder for the heat to dissipate. But I'm curious what they said exactly? Could you copy their message here?

The guy's English wasn't very good, but here is the message traffic:

Me:

Greetings,

I'm trying to find out which direction the fan blows on this power supply. Does it exhaust heat or does it intake air? Would it be best to mount the PSU upside down or upright? I'm guessing upright, but I'm unsure. Thanks!

Support:

Dear Link:

Thank you very much for purchasing SilverStone.

ST45SF’s fan is intake air fan and SG05’s design is use power supply’s fan to help CPU cooler exhaust heat as following picture. If you will worry about this cooling solution, please reply us which CPU and CPU cooler did you have and we can suggest you put the power fan up or down.



Best Regards,

Albert Chang
SilverStone Technology Co., Ltd.

Me:

I will have an Intel i7 2600k running at ~4.5GHz and a Corsair H55 Water CPU Cooler with two Static Pressure Fans in a push pull configuration around the radiator mounted to the front intake position on the SG05 exhausting out of the front. I also will be running an EVGA GTX 670 FTW+ 4GB GPU, which will pull in cool air from the perforated side of the SG05 case and blow it out the back.

Do you recommend having the PSU pulling air from the inside of the case or from the top/outside and exhausting out the back?

Support:

Dear Link:

Did you put your SG05 on a closed or open environment and did there have anything in the rear of your SG05? If you put your SG05 in an open environment and output hot air will exhaust easily, we will suggest you made the PSU pulling air from the top/outside.

Best Regards,

Albert Chang
SilverStone Technology Co., Ltd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiSK View Post

Depending on speed of fans, air coming through the radiator will be approx. 5C lower than the temperature of the radiator. The radiator temp will be approx. equal to the coolant. A misunderstanding many people have is that coolant temp will be close to the CPU cores temps. It won't. Assuming ambient room temp around 25C and CPU cores loaded at 60C, then coolant temp on an H55 might be 35-40C, and so the exhaust air from the radiator will be 30-35C. This will feel warm to your hand, but it's not "hot". Moreover, it's cooler than the CPU and motherboard chips and, if you use the PSU to draw it away again immediately, motherboard temps will remain surprisingly low (~40C). If you don't use PSU to make the wind tunnel effect, then the warm air will blow around the case, possibly not in an optimal way.

The reason I thought it best to exhaust the air going through the radiator is because that's how I do with my main rig and an H100 at the top; it just seems logical not to push/pull heated air into the case, especially when there's no other place for an intake fan. I also read through the Official Corsair Hydro Series Club thread and the FAQ on the first page. One of the questions was whether to exhaust or intake; the response is listed as follows:

Originally Posted by Killhouse
"Basically, running your fan/radiator setup as intake will give you lower temperatures than an exhaust setup - this is because the radiator is being fed cool air from outside the case. However, the H-series are very good at sending a lot of heat out of that radiator, and if you run it as an intake then you will be sending a lot of hot air into your case - this might be detrimental, especially if you have graphics cards with struggling stock coolers. Personally, I prefer to run my unit in exhaust for better health of my system - and if you have a good amount of intake into your case somewhere near your radiator, you'll see very little temperature difference between intake and exhaust."

Since I won't have any other intakes, I'm really not sure what would be better... just seems wrong to blow heated air into the case and even more wrong to allow the PSU to utilize that heated air to cool itself and then finally see it get exhausted. Maybe I can rig up a single fan as an intake and have the other three main components (CPU, GPU, PSU) pulling in separate air from different places and exhausting their own workload?

(Blargh) It sounds like the fan placement will require tests, which I always do anyways; so, do you think the parts I've chosen would do well together? I wanted more input before I pulled the trigger, buuuut... the EVGA SC+ 4GB GTX670 (which is merely a bit shy under the overclock of the FTW+) just went on sale on Newegg for $409 soooo...
post #10 of 25
Albert. That's interesting that he shows the PSU fan down picture first, then changes his mind. I wonder, is his suggestion based on your mention of an overclock, or the H55, or the quite powerful GPU, or combination? Is his motivation to avoid chance of RMA, or to help your CPU overclock stability? wink.gif

Killhouse. I read 18 pages of the Corsair thread until I found what appears to be the source of Killhouse's assertion: that the rad air feels hot. I don't have the time to further investigate, but I have a suspicion that no actual measurements were made. His advice then, seems to be based on a similar intuition as yours that it "just seems wrong to blow heated air into the case". Despite my misgivings, exhaust is generally the accepted setup in a large case. This is because generally the inside of a well cooled case with 40-60 liter capacity is much closer to ambient. So the difference in radiator performance is much closer, and chipset/vrm temps are dealt with by separate intake case fans.

The SG05 is only 11 liters inside (minus the few liters taken up by components). A single fan is quite able to reach all corners of the case and refill it with fresh air several times over every second. This is obviously true for intaking as well as for exhausting. However, in small case radiated heat from components is in a much denser volume. If you've only really got one fan dealing with keeping the motherboard components cool, then I accept it feels counterintuitive if this would not be "fresh air". Yet the same argument can be applied to the CPU cooler, which works best with "fresh air". To cool a CPU with case air in itself causes a feedback loop: the hotter the case air, the less cooling to the CPU, the more heat radiated from the CPU, the hotter the case air.

So, when you do your tests, keep an eye on all temps, not just CPU but also GPU and motherboard sensors, PSU as well. See what the options are. Maybe you decide better GPU temp is better at the cost of the other two. Maybe you decide potential dust is bigger issue than any temps. I told what I chose for both my SG05 and FT03-mini, which are both at full load 24/7 for months on end. By my goals are not your goals, so see what you are comfortable with. I just try to pass on my experience smile.gif
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