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[Kotaku] Watch 17 Minutes of Battlefield 4 Gameplay, Right Here - Page 55

post #541 of 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

They also made it possible to spawn on all team members, instead of only squad leaders. Reduced the number of classes (even in 2142, each "class" really had 2 different roles to pick between). Reduced squad size. Removed team assets. Made it quicker to get around the map, even without a vehicle. Made vehicles spawn all over the place instead of in strategic positions. Made maps smaller, and designed the maps in such a way that you can never really get "cut off" from any of the capture points.

In general, they made a LOT of changes that don't necessarily deny teamwork, but certainly allows users much more ability NOT to rely on a team, which is essentially the same thing as banning teamwork when it comes to public servers.

Squad leaders in bf2 would usually camp anyways as if the squad leader died so did the squad, this was only fixed in 2142 with the beacon. I think the squad members should only be able to spawn on the squad leader but the beacon is necessary. Also did they not have it this way in the alpha and beta and people complained for them to change it?

How is the bf3 classes any different from 2142 classes?

support/ demolitions

assault/medic

engie/anti tank

sniper/ team support

The only way to get around quicker around the map is unlimited sprint and thank god for that. Nothing is more boring than some team member not giving you a ride in bf2 and you having to hoof it to the objective not being able to sprint. Not all the maps are smaller, the largest maps in bf2 were the least popular ones, fu she pass was never played.

What about the several features that added teamwork: soflam/ jav combo, mav, citv station, guided shells, 2 people using a stinger in unison can spell death for an aircraft. There are many things in bf3 that enhanced teamwork, because lets face it people were too stupid to use teamwork 99% of the time in bf2 and their too stupid 99% of the time to use teamwork in bf3. Its not DICE or the game's fault its the community. You don't seem to know anything about bf3 so all you can do is hate on it sad.
Edited by sausageson - 4/2/13 at 10:28pm
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post #542 of 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post

Squad leaders in bf2 would usually camp anyways as if the squad leader died so did the squad, this was only fixed in 2142 with the beacon. I think the squad members should only be able to spawn on the squad leader but the beacon is necessary. Also did they not have it this way in the alpha and beta and people complained for them to change it?

How is the bf3 classes any different from 2142 classes?

support/ demolitions

assault/medic

engie/anti tank

sniper/ team support

The only way to get around quicker around the map is unlimited sprint and thank god for that. Nothing is more boring than some team member not giving you a ride in bf2 and you having to hoof it to the objective not being able to sprint. Not all the maps are smaller, the largest maps in bf2 were the least popular ones, fu she pass was never played.

What about the several features that added teamwork: soflam/ jav combo, mav, citv station, guided shells, 2 people using a stinger in unison can spell death for an aircraft. There are many things in bf3 that enhanced teamwork, because lets face it people were too stupid to use teamwork 99% of the time in bf2 and their too stupid 99% of the time to use teamwork in bf3. Its not DICE or the game's fault its the community. You don't seem to know anything about bf3 so all you can do is hate on it sad.

Yes they did have it where you only spawned on squad leader. Idk about the complaining statement, but i was in the alpha. Some of your points are spot on. But i have to disagree about him hating on BF3 he's just stating it's obvious flaws. That and teamwork isn't near what it was in BF2.
You really don't even have to play it like battlefield IMO you can run and gun and still do fine. All in all BF3 is a fun game i like (obviously i bought it) it doesn't live up to it's predecessor, and if they make a lot of changes for the better in BF4 i will be thoroughly impressed to say the least.

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post #543 of 620
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Originally Posted by Krahe View Post

Well i was hoping it would be only on the next gen consoles PC so we get the most of of the Frostbite 3 engine.

Fixed that for you
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post #544 of 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post

Squad leaders in bf2 would usually camp anyways as if the squad leader died so did the squad, this was only fixed in 2142 with the beacon. I think the squad members should only be able to spawn on the squad leader but the beacon is necessary. Also did they not have it this way in the alpha and beta and people complained for them to change it?

I have no idea if it was in alpha. I didn't play alpha. It was in all the BF games up till Bad Company however, and it forced teamwork.

If a squad leader is camping out of sight near an objective or behind enemy lines, they're still participating more in team play than the bunch of headless chickens we have now, running around twitch shooting friend and foe alike and inevitably dying before accomplishing anything significant (a problem which could also be partially attributed to the removal of team damage).
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post

How is the bf3 classes any different from 2142 classes?

support/ demolitions

assault/medic

engie/anti tank

sniper/ team support

In 2142, they may have only had the same number of classes, but unlike BF3, you had to spec out your class for the role, you couldn't do all the roles that your class was capable of at the same time. As a recon for instance, you had to pick between spec-ops OR sniper.

The way the classes were broken down also resulted in more unique roles and more potential for squad synergy. In BF3, you can be the the counter-sniper, the demo guy, the suppressive fire, CQB guy, artillery, AND ammo guy all at the same time. It's called "Support".

In 2142, even with your so called "same classes", the guy with the C4 (or rather in this case the spec ops recon with the RDX) had to rely on the other guy with the ammo bag to resupply them, and both of which relied on the third guy with either a heavy AR (assault), or a sniper rifle (sniper spec) to cover their asses from enemy snipers. Thats 3 people, playing 3 distinctly different roles, with either 2 or 3 different classes - all of which gets compressed into a single teamless lonewolf class in BF3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post

The only way to get around quicker around the map is unlimited sprint and thank god for that. Nothing is more boring than some team member not giving you a ride in bf2 and you having to hoof it to the objective not being able to sprint. Not all the maps are smaller, the largest maps in bf2 were the least popular ones, fu she pass was never played.

Tanks are faster, vehicles respawn quicker, and most maps are smaller, don't get pedantic with semantics.

Yes, it sucked when you didn't have a ride in BF2 - that was the point. It meant either getting your ass in a vehicle, defending, or making a long, arduous, and desperate trek in the open. Look at that, a game mechanic that encourages strategy instead of just zipping around all over the map aimlessly because everything is within easy reach of every other position at all times.

It also encouraged people to stop and pick up their freaking teammates, as to not get abandoned themselves in retaliation. I've yet to see a single person stop a vehicle to let anyone in in BF3, because why bother? By the time you stop and they get in, you would already be at your objective, and they don't matter, cause you're a one man army. And in the event you die? They're still just a few seconds away with their superhuman running speeds.

Fu She was one of my favorite maps. There were plenty of servers dedicated to it 24/7. Just because YOU might not have played it, doesn't mean no one did. Less popular than karkand? Probably, but then CoD is more popular than BF, you gonna make the claim that it's a better franchise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post

What about the several features that added teamwork: soflam/ jav combo, mav, citv station, guided shells, 2 people using a stinger in unison can spell death for an aircraft.

Not a single soul ever uses soflams in pubs. Ever. Even noobs who just got it and are excited to try it out spend like 30 seconds using it before getting bored and walking away from it, leaving it in some useless awkward position. Not only is it incredibly boring, but the person doing the targeting gets so few points, the game is really penalizing you for helping your team.

Same thing goes for most of the other silly gadgets you mentioned.

Sure, it might get used effectively on rare occasion in clan matches, but you can have teamwork in ANY game if you are being deliberate about it. Having Having mechanics built into a game that actually actively encourage random players to play together is a much more impressive feat than simply having a mechanic that allows for teamplay.

If you still feel that it's "better than not having these things", or whatever, it's because you aren't thinking about all the teamplay enhancing things they removed from previous battlefield games.

And, just because it peeves me to see you say such a silly thing, of course 2 stingers used at the same time is more effective than one. Two people shooting pistols at an enemy is more effective than one person shooting a pistol at an enemy. Two people shooting RPGs at a tank is more effective than one. Two ANYTHING is more effective than one. This isn't some magical BF3 stinger exclusive feature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post

There are many things in bf3 that enhanced teamwork, because lets face it people were too stupid to use teamwork 99% of the time in bf2 and their too stupid 99% of the time to use teamwork in bf3.

People may be stupid. If so, point them in the right direction, penalize them for doing things wrong, and reward them for doing things right. It's called training. You can do it to dogs, and even stupid people are smarter than dogs.

On the other hand, people actually aren't stupid. They just don't go out of their way to hurt their own scores AND not have fun at the same time. BF3's "teamplay" mechanics either do one, the other, or both. Meanwhile, there is absolutely no penalty for lonewolf run and gun. What makes you think the average person (not in a clan, no one is depending on them, no one in the server knows them, they just want to shoot stuff and earn unlocks) would choose to go out of their way to participate in teamwork when it's easier, faster, more fun, and more beneficial to their score not to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post

Its not DICE or the game's fault its the community.

Was it possible for people to avoid teamwork in BF2? Absolutely. In BF2142? Still yes. Is it possible to HAVE teamwork in BF3? sure. Is the community partially to blame? Probably.

All of these things apply to every game ever made, and thus are irrelevant for comparison between titles.

What DOES matter is that past BF games gave you reason to play as a team, BF3 does not. If that change has resulted in even 1% fewer players participating in teamwork, it's a failure, and it certainly has. That IS DICE's fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post

You don't seem to know anything about bf3 so all you can do is hate on it sad.

Not only is that a blatant insult designed to do nothing more than derail the conversation, but it also manages to be Ironic, conceited, and hypocritical. Oh right, and I'm fairly sure this forum doesn't approve of those things. If you can't support your arguments with valid claims, perhaps you should stop making them. Resorting to name calling doesn't strengthen your case, it just makes you look like an embarrassed child who bit off more than he could chew (oh look, I can do it too).
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post #545 of 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post

You don't seem to know anything about bf3 so all you can do is hate on it sad.

Sad is a response like that... just because someone has an opinion, doesn't mean it's worth any less than yours.
post #546 of 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post


I think anytime I see a post come up saying how much better BF3 is than BF2142 I am going to link to this post. I've said the same things before (though I don't think I have in one single post)and I can already give you the rebuttal...

"Well, I never saw any of that when I played."

I have a strong feeling that the people that think BF3 is the best BF yet are the same people that tried to be lone wolves in BF2142 and BF2. If that's all I did I would have thought the games suck too. Of course I did it a little when I was aiming for a certain medal or something...but damn...I can't believe what some people missed out on by going solo all the time.
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post #547 of 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

I have no idea if it was in alpha. I didn't play alpha. It was in all the BF games up till Bad Company however, and it forced teamwork.

If a squad leader is camping out of sight near an objective or behind enemy lines, they're still participating more in team play than the bunch of headless chickens we have now, running around twitch shooting friend and foe alike and inevitably dying before accomplishing anything significant (a problem which could also be partially attributed to the removal of team damage).
In 2142, they may have only had the same number of classes, but unlike BF3, you had to spec out your class for the role, you couldn't do all the roles that your class was capable of at the same time. As a recon for instance, you had to pick between spec-ops OR sniper.

The way the classes were broken down also resulted in more unique roles and more potential for squad synergy. In BF3, you can be the the counter-sniper, the demo guy, the suppressive fire, CQB guy, artillery, AND ammo guy all at the same time. It's called "Support".

In 2142, even with your so called "same classes", the guy with the C4 (or rather in this case the spec ops recon with the RDX) had to rely on the other guy with the ammo bag to resupply them, and both of which relied on the third guy with either a heavy AR (assault), or a sniper rifle (sniper spec) to cover their asses from enemy snipers. Thats 3 people, playing 3 distinctly different roles, with either 2 or 3 different classes - all of which gets compressed into a single teamless lonewolf class in BF3.
Tanks are faster, vehicles respawn quicker, and most maps are smaller, don't get pedantic with semantics.

Yes, it sucked when you didn't have a ride in BF2 - that was the point. It meant either getting your ass in a vehicle, defending, or making a long, arduous, and desperate trek in the open. Look at that, a game mechanic that encourages strategy instead of just zipping around all over the map aimlessly because everything is within easy reach of every other position at all times.

It also encouraged people to stop and pick up their freaking teammates, as to not get abandoned themselves in retaliation. I've yet to see a single person stop a vehicle to let anyone in in BF3, because why bother? By the time you stop and they get in, you would already be at your objective, and they don't matter, cause you're a one man army. And in the event you die? They're still just a few seconds away with their superhuman running speeds.

Fu She was one of my favorite maps. There were plenty of servers dedicated to it 24/7. Just because YOU might not have played it, doesn't mean no one did. Less popular than karkand? Probably, but then CoD is more popular than BF, you gonna make the claim that it's a better franchise?
Not a single soul ever uses soflams in pubs. Ever. Even noobs who just got it and are excited to try it out spend like 30 seconds using it before getting bored and walking away from it, leaving it in some useless awkward position. Not only is it incredibly boring, but the person doing the targeting gets so few points, the game is really penalizing you for helping your team.

Same thing goes for most of the other silly gadgets you mentioned.

Sure, it might get used effectively on rare occasion in clan matches, but you can have teamwork in ANY game if you are being deliberate about it. Having Having mechanics built into a game that actually actively encourage random players to play together is a much more impressive feat than simply having a mechanic that allows for teamplay.

If you still feel that it's "better than not having these things", or whatever, it's because you aren't thinking about all the teamplay enhancing things they removed from previous battlefield games.

And, just because it peeves me to see you say such a silly thing, of course 2 stingers used at the same time is more effective than one. Two people shooting pistols at an enemy is more effective than one person shooting a pistol at an enemy. Two people shooting RPGs at a tank is more effective than one. Two ANYTHING is more effective than one. This isn't some magical BF3 stinger exclusive feature.
People may be stupid. If so, point them in the right direction, penalize them for doing things wrong, and reward them for doing things right. It's called training. You can do it to dogs, and even stupid people are smarter than dogs.

On the other hand, people actually aren't stupid. They just don't go out of their way to hurt their own scores AND not have fun at the same time. BF3's "teamplay" mechanics either do one, the other, or both. Meanwhile, there is absolutely no penalty for lonewolf run and gun. What makes you think the average person (not in a clan, no one is depending on them, no one in the server knows them, they just want to shoot stuff and earn unlocks) would choose to go out of their way to participate in teamwork when it's easier, faster, more fun, and more beneficial to their score not to?
Was it possible for people to avoid teamwork in BF2? Absolutely. In BF2142? Still yes. Is it possible to HAVE teamwork in BF3? sure. Is the community partially to blame? Probably.

All of these things apply to every game ever made, and thus are irrelevant for comparison between titles.

What DOES matter is that past BF games gave you reason to play as a team, BF3 does not. If that change has resulted in even 1% fewer players participating in teamwork, it's a failure, and it certainly has. That IS DICE's fault.
Not only is that a blatant insult designed to do nothing more than derail the conversation, but it also manages to be Ironic, conceited, and hypocritical. Oh right, and I'm fairly sure this forum doesn't approve of those things. If you can't support your arguments with valid claims, perhaps you should stop making them. Resorting to name calling doesn't strengthen your case, it just makes you look like an embarrassed child who bit off more than he could chew (oh look, I can do it too).

All the bolded are 100% false.

1.
You try to claim that support can be "In BF3, you can be the the counter-sniper, the demo guy, the suppressive fire, CQB guy, artillery, AND ammo guy all at the same time.".

Rubbish, especially when more than half of what you state cannot be used together with another thing in your list. Demo and artillery occupy the same slot. The best CQB weapons SMG/Shottys cannot be used in conjunction with LMGs capable of the best suppressing fire.

You assert that you can carry out all your classes roles all at the same time and use previous sniper/spec-ops classes as an example.

Make a video of you playing as Recon in BF3 with an SMG, T-UGS, MAV, bolt action rifle and a radio beacon all at the same time.

Make a video of you playing as Assault with a med kit, smoke grenades, barrel mounted shotgun.

I'd like to see you being able to carry out all those roles all at the same time.

Until then, stop either telling lies or being ignorant of the truth.

2.
By the time a person stops to let you into a vehicle, you're already at your destination?

I'm not even going to bother humouring this one.

3.
Asserting that "not a soul" uses the MAV? Or CITV stations? Or guided shells? I guess you'd also assert that none of the other teamwork essential gadgets like ammo/health/defibs are used?

4.
Battlefield 3 gives you no reason to play as a team? Again, total nonsense. Even in team death match, teamwork easily wins the day. Especially so in other ticket sensitive game modes.

Even suppression mechanics reward the team who can concentrate their fire better. Then there's just the fact that you're much more likely to be successful working as a team.

Its almost hard to begin to formulate an answer for this because its so obvious. Infact, most of the reasons I'd think of for BF2142 could easily be applied to BF3.

Durability
Rearming.
Repairs.
Strength in numbers (duh).


I wouldn't normally agree with people saying such things, but your rant at the end there about being told that you know nothing about BF3 doesn't seem justified after reading your post. You either don't have that much experience with BF3 on the whole or you're just making things up in order to have an argument in the cases I pointed out.
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 4/3/13 at 7:48am
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post #548 of 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

I have no idea if it was in alpha. I didn't play alpha. It was in all the BF games up till Bad Company however, and it forced teamwork.

If a squad leader is camping out of sight near an objective or behind enemy lines, they're still participating more in team play than the bunch of headless chickens we have now, running around twitch shooting friend and foe alike and inevitably dying before accomplishing anything significant (a problem which could also be partially attributed to the removal of team damage).
In 2142, they may have only had the same number of classes, but unlike BF3, you had to spec out your class for the role, you couldn't do all the roles that your class was capable of at the same time. As a recon for instance, you had to pick between spec-ops OR sniper.

The way the classes were broken down also resulted in more unique roles and more potential for squad synergy. In BF3, you can be the the counter-sniper, the demo guy, the suppressive fire, CQB guy, artillery, AND ammo guy all at the same time. It's called "Support".

In 2142, even with your so called "same classes", the guy with the C4 (or rather in this case the spec ops recon with the RDX) had to rely on the other guy with the ammo bag to resupply them, and both of which relied on the third guy with either a heavy AR (assault), or a sniper rifle (sniper spec) to cover their asses from enemy snipers. Thats 3 people, playing 3 distinctly different roles, with either 2 or 3 different classes - all of which gets compressed into a single teamless lonewolf class in BF3.
Tanks are faster, vehicles respawn quicker, and most maps are smaller, don't get pedantic with semantics.

Yes, it sucked when you didn't have a ride in BF2 - that was the point. It meant either getting your ass in a vehicle, defending, or making a long, arduous, and desperate trek in the open. Look at that, a game mechanic that encourages strategy instead of just zipping around all over the map aimlessly because everything is within easy reach of every other position at all times.

It also encouraged people to stop and pick up their freaking teammates, as to not get abandoned themselves in retaliation. I've yet to see a single person stop a vehicle to let anyone in in BF3, because why bother? By the time you stop and they get in, you would already be at your objective, and they don't matter, cause you're a one man army. And in the event you die? They're still just a few seconds away with their superhuman running speeds.

Fu She was one of my favorite maps. There were plenty of servers dedicated to it 24/7. Just because YOU might not have played it, doesn't mean no one did. Less popular than karkand? Probably, but then CoD is more popular than BF, you gonna make the claim that it's a better franchise?
Not a single soul ever uses soflams in pubs. Ever. Even noobs who just got it and are excited to try it out spend like 30 seconds using it before getting bored and walking away from it, leaving it in some useless awkward position. Not only is it incredibly boring, but the person doing the targeting gets so few points, the game is really penalizing you for helping your team.

Same thing goes for most of the other silly gadgets you mentioned.

Sure, it might get used effectively on rare occasion in clan matches, but you can have teamwork in ANY game if you are being deliberate about it. Having Having mechanics built into a game that actually actively encourage random players to play together is a much more impressive feat than simply having a mechanic that allows for teamplay.

If you still feel that it's "better than not having these things", or whatever, it's because you aren't thinking about all the teamplay enhancing things they removed from previous battlefield games.

And, just because it peeves me to see you say such a silly thing, of course 2 stingers used at the same time is more effective than one. Two people shooting pistols at an enemy is more effective than one person shooting a pistol at an enemy. Two people shooting RPGs at a tank is more effective than one. Two ANYTHING is more effective than one. This isn't some magical BF3 stinger exclusive feature.
People may be stupid. If so, point them in the right direction, penalize them for doing things wrong, and reward them for doing things right. It's called training. You can do it to dogs, and even stupid people are smarter than dogs.

On the other hand, people actually aren't stupid. They just don't go out of their way to hurt their own scores AND not have fun at the same time. BF3's "teamplay" mechanics either do one, the other, or both. Meanwhile, there is absolutely no penalty for lonewolf run and gun. What makes you think the average person (not in a clan, no one is depending on them, no one in the server knows them, they just want to shoot stuff and earn unlocks) would choose to go out of their way to participate in teamwork when it's easier, faster, more fun, and more beneficial to their score not to?
Was it possible for people to avoid teamwork in BF2? Absolutely. In BF2142? Still yes. Is it possible to HAVE teamwork in BF3? sure. Is the community partially to blame? Probably.

All of these things apply to every game ever made, and thus are irrelevant for comparison between titles.

What DOES matter is that past BF games gave you reason to play as a team, BF3 does not. If that change has resulted in even 1% fewer players participating in teamwork, it's a failure, and it certainly has. That IS DICE's fault.
Not only is that a blatant insult designed to do nothing more than derail the conversation, but it also manages to be Ironic, conceited, and hypocritical. Oh right, and I'm fairly sure this forum doesn't approve of those things. If you can't support your arguments with valid claims, perhaps you should stop making them. Resorting to name calling doesn't strengthen your case, it just makes you look like an embarrassed child who bit off more than he could chew (oh look, I can do it too).

No a squad leader camping an objective does not contribute anything other than being a spawn point, you seem to have this romanticized view of bf2 where people would listen to the squad leader and go around moving together as a squad, organized play maybe. pub play? heck no; yet all the instances you are talking about bf3 you are speaking about pub play.

You think having a longer time get to objectives because of the lack of unlimited sprint made team mates more likely to pick you up? No if someone is a douche and a bad team player they are not going to about you at all, again a romanticized view of bf2. That is like arguing no sprint at all in 1942 made the game better. Also in bf3 despite the sprint you do not reach objectives that quickly and are clearly exaggerating if you think in a few seconds they can keep up with a jeep.





Spec ops in 2142 could cover themselves; also assaults/medics and engie/AT function the exact same in bf3; and just gave some fictious scenario in 2142. I can do that too; in bf3 a support guy puts c4 on a tank and expects the assault and sniper to cover him, especially considering the lmg has a poor chance of hitting a target while moving with their lmg.

Tanks are only faster when you use the speed boost, which restricts you manuverability; how does that have any impact on the teamwork of the game, servers can set how quickly vehicles respawn.

I played fu she pass but like I said it was rarely played, cause guess what in bf2 people still cared about their scores and fu she pass resulted in the lowest scores for most people.

In regards to the soflam I have seen it used countless times even on pub servers so it proves how little you play bf3 and know nothing of it. Funny you call it boring as if the commander feature in bf2 wasnt boring ordering around troops with waypoints knowing 90% of the time they are not gonna listen to you, but guess what people found it fun and some people will do what it takes to win as a team something which is a problem in ALL bf games as there are not enough of these people. You also bring up the points argument about the soflam when points and kills is not what bf is about, people did not get points in bf2 for picking up their team mates, spotting enemies and such but they did it because its good teamwork, people still at least get a few points for using a soflam, but points should not be the reason you use it. It is incredibly useful and allows you a huge advantage against enemy vehicles, but what would you know you don't use it and have never seen it used.

Way to generalize the stinger, first missile makes them pop their flares and the second goes for the aircraft, this actually requires you to do it right after each other as you only have a small window of opportunity before the target aircraft gets away. Its not the same as shooting 2 pistols at one guy. Also much better than bf2 terrible AA which was a fixed aa postition that all pilots knew the location of and could be destroyed out of range.

Have no argument against these "silly gadgets" so you are just gonna lump them in with your lame soflam argument.

Bf2 did not encourage teamwork, I knew a guy who would join a squad for a spawn point and just go around killing people and got a good score, same with anyone who uses a jet; they just bomb guys and nothing more.

You do not get penalized for not picking up an ally, not spotting etc and you do not get rewarded for doing it right either.

BF does not train anyone, in the end they care about their points and kills and nothing more; thats why infantry only grenade spam karkand has become the norm.

Also all your examples of bf3 are in pub level play while all of you "examples" in bf2 are clearly not, a squad providing covering fire to a demo guy in a pub? hahah yea right. You are judging the game totally unfairly comparing bf2 at its highest levels of play and comparing bf3 at pub play.

After reading your sad response about the soflam its safe to say you do not know anything of bf3. Nobody uses the soflam? yea right, or any of the silly gadgets? I am now curious how long you have played the game or only play metro, because a well placed soflam manned correctly could be the difference between a win or loss.
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post #549 of 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

I have no idea if it was in alpha. I didn't play alpha. It was in all the BF games up till Bad Company however, and it forced teamwork.

If a squad leader is camping out of sight near an objective or behind enemy lines, they're still participating more in team play than the bunch of headless chickens we have now, running around twitch shooting friend and foe alike and inevitably dying before accomplishing anything significant (a problem which could also be partially attributed to the removal of team damage).
In 2142, they may have only had the same number of classes, but unlike BF3, you had to spec out your class for the role, you couldn't do all the roles that your class was capable of at the same time. As a recon for instance, you had to pick between spec-ops OR sniper.

The way the classes were broken down also resulted in more unique roles and more potential for squad synergy. In BF3, you can be the the counter-sniper, the demo guy, the suppressive fire, CQB guy, artillery, AND ammo guy all at the same time. It's called "Support".

In 2142, even with your so called "same classes", the guy with the C4 (or rather in this case the spec ops recon with the RDX) had to rely on the other guy with the ammo bag to resupply them, and both of which relied on the third guy with either a heavy AR (assault), or a sniper rifle (sniper spec) to cover their asses from enemy snipers. Thats 3 people, playing 3 distinctly different roles, with either 2 or 3 different classes - all of which gets compressed into a single teamless lonewolf class in BF3.
Tanks are faster, vehicles respawn quicker, and most maps are smaller, don't get pedantic with semantics.

Yes, it sucked when you didn't have a ride in BF2 - that was the point. It meant either getting your ass in a vehicle, defending, or making a long, arduous, and desperate trek in the open. Look at that, a game mechanic that encourages strategy instead of just zipping around all over the map aimlessly because everything is within easy reach of every other position at all times.

It also encouraged people to stop and pick up their freaking teammates, as to not get abandoned themselves in retaliation. I've yet to see a single person stop a vehicle to let anyone in in BF3, because why bother? By the time you stop and they get in, you would already be at your objective, and they don't matter, cause you're a one man army. And in the event you die? They're still just a few seconds away with their superhuman running speeds.

Fu She was one of my favorite maps. There were plenty of servers dedicated to it 24/7. Just because YOU might not have played it, doesn't mean no one did. Less popular than karkand? Probably, but then CoD is more popular than BF, you gonna make the claim that it's a better franchise?
Not a single soul ever uses soflams in pubs. Ever. Even noobs who just got it and are excited to try it out spend like 30 seconds using it before getting bored and walking away from it, leaving it in some useless awkward position. Not only is it incredibly boring, but the person doing the targeting gets so few points, the game is really penalizing you for helping your team.

Same thing goes for most of the other silly gadgets you mentioned.

Sure, it might get used effectively on rare occasion in clan matches, but you can have teamwork in ANY game if you are being deliberate about it. Having Having mechanics built into a game that actually actively encourage random players to play together is a much more impressive feat than simply having a mechanic that allows for teamplay.

If you still feel that it's "better than not having these things", or whatever, it's because you aren't thinking about all the teamplay enhancing things they removed from previous battlefield games.

And, just because it peeves me to see you say such a silly thing, of course 2 stingers used at the same time is more effective than one. Two people shooting pistols at an enemy is more effective than one person shooting a pistol at an enemy. Two people shooting RPGs at a tank is more effective than one. Two ANYTHING is more effective than one. This isn't some magical BF3 stinger exclusive feature.
People may be stupid. If so, point them in the right direction, penalize them for doing things wrong, and reward them for doing things right. It's called training. You can do it to dogs, and even stupid people are smarter than dogs.

On the other hand, people actually aren't stupid. They just don't go out of their way to hurt their own scores AND not have fun at the same time. BF3's "teamplay" mechanics either do one, the other, or both. Meanwhile, there is absolutely no penalty for lonewolf run and gun. What makes you think the average person (not in a clan, no one is depending on them, no one in the server knows them, they just want to shoot stuff and earn unlocks) would choose to go out of their way to participate in teamwork when it's easier, faster, more fun, and more beneficial to their score not to?
Was it possible for people to avoid teamwork in BF2? Absolutely. In BF2142? Still yes. Is it possible to HAVE teamwork in BF3? sure. Is the community partially to blame? Probably.

All of these things apply to every game ever made, and thus are irrelevant for comparison between titles.

What DOES matter is that past BF games gave you reason to play as a team, BF3 does not. If that change has resulted in even 1% fewer players participating in teamwork, it's a failure, and it certainly has. That IS DICE's fault.
Not only is that a blatant insult designed to do nothing more than derail the conversation, but it also manages to be Ironic, conceited, and hypocritical. Oh right, and I'm fairly sure this forum doesn't approve of those things. If you can't support your arguments with valid claims, perhaps you should stop making them. Resorting to name calling doesn't strengthen your case, it just makes you look like an embarrassed child who bit off more than he could chew (oh look, I can do it too).


I read your posts on the Battlefield series, and I don't feel alone. Your words echo my experience almost exactly with the franchise. I've got high hopes for BF4, because maybe, just maybe someone at DICE can sell EA on bringing old features back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausageson View Post


Bf2 did not encourage teamwork, I knew a guy who would join a squad for a spawn point and just go around killing people and got a good score, same with anyone who uses a jet; they just bomb guys and nothing more.

You do not get penalized for not picking up an ally, not spotting etc and you do not get rewarded for doing it right either.

BF does not train anyone, in the end they care about their points and kills and nothing more; thats why infantry only grenade spam karkand has become the norm.

Also all your examples of bf3 are in pub level play while all of you "examples" in bf2 are clearly not, a squad providing covering fire to a demo guy in a pub? hahah yea right. You are judging the game totally unfairly comparing bf2 at its highest levels of play and comparing bf3 at pub play.

I completely disagree with your post, and I played the game consistently for 5 years. BF2 did encourage teamwork. Without it, and without a full squad, my friends and I couldn't do jack. My friend loved to run and gun, but without support, or a medic in the squad, he'd have half the KD ratio he has now.

You definitely get rewarded for spotting things. Think of it this way. I'm a medic, I spot a tank, an anti-tank member of my team sees it on the map, takes it out. Now I can cross the street, and avoid death and support someone else on my team.

All I played was "pub level", both BF2 and BF3, and my experience completely agrees with Zero's. So either you didn't play with friends, or you played on some pretty crap servers.

BF2's teamwork reward was that of a victory. If you had a commander issuing orders to squads, and organizing them correctly, with proper Arty supporting and not killing teammates, there was definitely more organization to it. Even without an amazing squad leader, having one for supply drops, or vehicle drops, for spotting enemies and for arty support made the experience completely different from anything that's out there right now.
Edited by ryboto - 4/3/13 at 8:01am
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post #550 of 620
I say get rid of KD from the scoreboard like in BFBC2. That's one of the main reason why BFBC2 had much, much more teamwork than BF3 does. Now it's just full of bunnyhopping "pro" gamers farming kills.
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