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[PCper] Frame Rating Dissected: Full Details on Capture-based Graphics Performance Testing - Page 11

post #101 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoGTy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane2207 View Post

Probably because SLI was built from the ground up with frame metering built in and Crossfire hasn't?

Tin foil hats at the ready huh? tongue.gif

It's hardly a case of tin foil hats. It's just common sense. Testees A and B are being tested with a method partially developed by B, then observer X concludes B has the best results. If you can't see why people are skeptic about that... I'm not sure if you're ever skeptical tongue.gif

Because nVidia didn't design the AMD cards and the capture method, which is the foundation of this testing.

nVidia just helped develop the program that churns the raw data into charts.

Why would Nvidia fake results when they don't need to anyways?
It's been known for awhile that CF has a lot of downfalls.

In the own damn video he even says for a single setup AMD is probably a better choice....
post #102 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoGTy View Post

It's hardly a case of tin foil hats. It's just common sense. Testees A and B are being tested with a method partially developed by B, then observer X concludes B has the best results. If you can't see why people are skeptic about that... I'm not sure if you're ever skeptical tongue.gif

So you're saying end of pipe line frame capture is deliberately discarding AMDs frames?

Right.....
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post #103 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane2207 View Post

So you're saying end of pipe line frame capture is deliberately discarding AMDs frames?

Right.....
I'm not. Where do you see that written down? I'm merely pointing out nvidia's involvement in developing a way of testing that is only starting to become somewhat accepted.
Some skepticism can be useful.
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post #104 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoGTy View Post

I'm not. Where do you see that written down? I'm merely pointing out nvidia's involvement in developing a way of testing that is only starting to become somewhat accepted.
Some skepticism can be useful.

The method is explained in great detail and most of the code is even open source. The method has also been acknowledged by not only PCper, but Anandtech, Tom's Hardware and by and large Guru3D as well.

If there is a place for skepticism, it isn't in the method but in the timing. There is no question on whether or not this was brought up now with such force to support Nvidia's sales. That doesn't mean the results are not real or that they should be ignored.
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post #105 of 420
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Originally Posted by reqq View Post

HT seems to increase frametime

df8afc87bebf499c9d6d3e1.png
54f52364c4df4944a389c73.png

How disgusting..... +rep for posting this, thank you. Did your source also check vishera? I bet AMD's implementation of "fake" cores doesn't suffer from this.
post #106 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoGTy View Post

I'm not. Where do you see that written down? I'm merely pointing out nvidia's involvement in developing a way of testing that is only starting to become somewhat accepted.
Some skepticism can be useful.

Seeing as AMD openly acknowledged the issue in their interview on Anand, I'm not certain why there would be any skepticism at all?

I think specopsFI puts it better:
Quote:
Originally Posted by specopsFI View Post

The method is explained in great detail and most of the code is even open source. The method has also been acknowledged by not only PCper, but Anandtech, Tom's Hardware and by and large Guru3D as well.

If there is a place for skepticism, it isn't in the method but in the timing. There is no question on whether or not this was brought up now with such force to support Nvidia's sales. That doesn't mean the results are not real or that they should be ignored.
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post #107 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by specopsFI View Post

The method is explained in great detail and most of the code is even open source. The method has also been acknowledged by not only PCper, but Anandtech, Tom's Hardware and by and large Guru3D as well.

Not to mention AMD developing an entire presentation on frame latency and their response to it (the one given to Anandtech). I think the "this is all Nvidia's stealth marketing" ship has sailed.

Edit: Seriously, Kane - 2 seconds. You slip in under me by 2 seconds? smile.gif
post #108 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane2207 View Post

I'm not arguing with you bud but both Nvidia and AMD have gone on record to say that how FRAPS measures is next to useless.

I appreciate that we don't have better tools that we can use ourselves but continuing to use FRAPS in order to try to discredit Tech Report, Toms, PCper or Anand isn't going to cut it smile.gif

The reasoning behind it is straightforward:

- FRAPS tells a PART of the story. Not all of it. Frame capture tells PART of the story. But not all of it. If I were you'd I'd read beyond the statements and actually see if these measurements actually have an impact upon the actual in-game EXPERIENCE.

You keep saying that frame capture only tells part of the story, but since it is basically acting as the monitor it would seem to tell the whole story, IMO. Could you elaborate on that point? Thanks.

However, I do understand though if you are saving your repsonse for your review site... tongue.gif
post #109 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Not to mention AMD developing an entire presentation on frame latency and their response to it (the one given to Anandtech). I think the "this is all Nvidia's stealth marketing" ship has sailed.

Edit: Seriously, Kane - 2 seconds. You slip in under me by 2 seconds? smile.gif

Ha, sorry bud, thanks for being on the same wavelength though thumb.gif
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post #110 of 420
"What the overlay does is it draws a single column of colour on each frame as it leaves the game engine". This is a quite crucial part of this testing method. Does anybody actually know when this happens? Before even drivers take effect ,just before hitting the screen, or somewhere in between?

While I agree that as a rule of thumb SLi is smoother (and have been suggesting this route to my friends and readers alike) than CFX, I simply can't accept his notion on adding another AMD card. CFX may generally lack in comparison to SLi but two radeons offer better performance and experience over a single radeon more often than not. And this comes from a person very sensitive to micro-stuttering.

He may have a case, but he certainly needs to make it more clear. Let's start with the hypothesis that his method ,the columns and all is very accurate. He speaks of runt frames. What is the definition of a "runt" frame? It obviously is short-but since he goes and pretty much discards a bunch of frames, he should come with a definition or a measure of what is trash and what is a keeper.

Edit. According to techreport (similar today's article)...
http://techreport.com/review/24553/inside-the-second-with-nvidia-frame-capture-tools
..runt frame is nvidia's terminology. So I suppose the definition should come from them.

Anandtech's article seems to be the best of the bunch.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6862/fcat-the-evolution-of-frame-interval-benchmarking-part-1/2

"On a technical level, the FCAT overlay tool ends up working almost identically to video game overlays as we see with FRAPS, MSI Afterburner, and other tools that insert basic overlays into games. In all of these cases, these tools are attaching themselves to the start of the rendering pipeline, intercepting the Present call, adding their own draw commands for their overlay, and then finally passing on the Present call. The end result is that much like how FRAPS is able to quickly and simply monitor framerates and draw overlays, the FCAT overlay tool is able to quickly insert the necessary color bars, and to do so without ever touching the GPU or video drivers."

I find it kinda bizarre that after all this talk about how misleading the start of the pipeline can be ,they go and partially base their method on the same area as FRAPS. If columns do survive the pipeline unaffected this could be moot of course. Still curious on that though.
Edited by Kuivamaa - 3/27/13 at 5:30pm
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