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[PCper] Frame Rating Dissected: Full Details on Capture-based Graphics Performance Testing - Page 24

post #231 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmerwede View Post

Back to the original discussion. ..

This is only being compared to fraps. Where in the pipe do apps like unigine valley, and msi afterburner calculate frames?

The same as fraps.
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post #232 of 420
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmerwede View Post

Back to the original discussion. ..

This is only being compared to fraps. Where in the pipe do apps like unigine valley, and msi afterburner calculate frames?

Measuring the amount of frames is not a problem, you'll get the same result from any point in the process.

The problems begin when you want to measure latency, frame times etc.

As far as I know fraps is about the only commonly used application that can measure those.
 
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post #233 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmerwede View Post

Back to the original discussion. ..

This is only being compared to fraps. Where in the pipe do apps like unigine valley, and msi afterburner calculate frames?

This is the only program that can calulate frames at the point of render? Then how the hell can any benchmarks until now be considered legit? I would think that its way more accurate to benchmark a gpu at the T_render than the T_game.

Isn't unigine all about the raw amount of frames anyway? What does it matter if some of them are short/runt or whatever? This only affects gaming experience, doesn't seem relevant to pure render muscle that these benchies are about, those frames are rendered anyway.
Edited by Kuivamaa - 3/29/13 at 11:24am
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post #234 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Measuring the amount of frames is not a problem, you'll get the same result from any point in the process.

The problems begin when you want to measure latency, frame times etc.

As far as I know fraps is about the only commonly used application that can measure those.

Thanks Alatar,

But aren't both methods based on time? Like 60 fps should equal 16.666r ms per frame no?
post #235 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolern View Post

I dont believe the main issue was just latency, it was the large variation in the latency from frame to frame which causes the unsmooth gameplay. And by PCpers video the 7000 series cards did not have a problem when run by themselves. The problem arises in crossfire. Hopefully AMD can fix the problem. I have a 7870 on my spare PC and holding back on getting another one due to this issue.

Yeah, it is the latency changes making a not very smooth motion...And I read elsewhere on here that another site had more benefits from CFX, and CFX certainly seems smoother than single card to me going from past experience and friends PCs. (HD4890 CFX/HD6870 CFX)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantsu View Post

CF is borked enough to be called near useless. Sure you can try and live with it using vsync or other frame limits but the end result is you're far from those 2x scaling numbers. Add to that the weak overall support with games like skyrim and AC completely lacking proper support. It doesn't look like AMD is putting much at all resources into making CF work. You'd think they would have been all at it when they started the hybrid CF thing when the APUs first came about. Look how that turned out, no one sane is using hybrid CF.

Of course on the other end you have to realize that Nvidia isn't without its own stutter problems, even if they are lesser. Also SLI scaling is usually weaker. Perhaps that's due to their frame balancing, or perhaps not. Also, you have to put the stuttering into perspective. You can still have a great gaming experience regardless of a few hiccups here or there, or even if you're CF 120 FPS drops to observable 70 FPS.

Have you actually used CFX? Firstly, a lot of this latency issue PCPer is saying for CFX seems to be over-stated...There is a problem, yes, but CFX not providing any benefit at all? That's just completely untrue as shown by virtually every CFX user there is.
Wasn't support for Skyrim, etc improved not long after launch? I know a lot of people in the Skyrim modding community are running CFX and not reporting heaps of issues at least.
Both will always need work, they need more than the usual amount right now but I'd never be happy with them stagnating in terms of software optimization. tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

Dunno, I noticed a color difference. It wasn't night and day, just off. I'm extremely picky about color balance, to the point of almost obsession. I'll spend quite a while fixing color for a movie, or something, even though it's watchable. Just me, ask me about resolutions or other things people fuss over... I don't care as much. That and each person sees color differently, some more vibrant than others. Some... differently than others. Not a big deal given biological error, so don't take this as me seeing color better than you. PS I'm "color impared", don't see certain spectrums quite on par with what I should. I see them, I see the color, it just looks different to me. =P So I have a very good grasp on the idea of people seeing color differently.

It's probably related to my monitor or something, I did a fairly decent overhaul of my rig (Dropped a screen, switched to Intel, moved stuff around on my desk, etc) when I switched properly last so that might have something to do with it. Either that or it's my monitors, which aren't exactly the best of the best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post

as long as the tools are open source, and completely up front about what is measured and how, it doesn't matter who makes it. Obviously Nvidia stands to gain from revealing problems with crossfire, but the consumers are better off if both companies make available the tools necessary to expose, quantify, and analyse problems with the competitor's products. The correct response from AMD is to fix their frame metering problems, and make public and open the tools necessary to analyse any problems Nvidia has that AMD does not.

Agreed. Open Source tools are the way to go here, that way AMD and nVidia can improve it using proprietary knowledge but we know they're not fouling the other team unfairly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

The point of all this arguing is that PCPer is making some pretty bold and frankly damning accusations towards AMD cards (claiming that CF is basically a massive hoax) which the Nvidia fanboys are taking no time to jump on and spew in every thread now. We've had Sky from Hardware Canucks come in here and explain that these results are still very immature and possibly misleading and that every hardware site is now trying to make a name for themselves by coming up with a new "standard" for GPU testing and that actual individual experiences may vary to the point where none of this is even relevant. Regardless, I'm sure the same usual suspects will continue to post links to this article in every GPU discussion on OCN from now on... rolleyes.gif

This.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raghu78 View Post

spot on. even if HD 7970 or HD 7950 CF users say from personal experience that the gameplay is smooth in the games they play it won't matter. CF works well in quite a few games . CF also has issues in a few games. but going as far as telling that a second card is useless is far from the truth.

It's just like SLI, but in a slightly worse position right now, there's an improvement in FPS at the very least which still does matter contrary to what some people are saying. (Which is on the level of the Ghz myth)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michalius View Post

Sky's comments betray a lack of understanding of what frame time testing is capable of.

It's not just about variation. The reason why variation is being explored is because this tool for measuring performance is accurate enough to be capable of measuring variation. It can be used to measure *everything*.

It is, though..Variation creates microstutter and is what causes you to notice the stuttering more, you'll notice it more when the latency is jumping from say, 16.7 to 30ms every few frames more than it just being at 25ms constantly despite the first example being at a lower latency more...Why do you think games need more FPS than movies? Movies are at a constant 24fps which is enough to create the illusion of smooth movement, games going from 60fps constant down to 30fps when some massive explosions take place will have a noticable stutter despite being at a higher FPS than the movie the entire time.
    
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post #236 of 420
pardon me for being a noob
if AMD users are claiming Radeon Pro virtually eliminates most stuttering problems
why isn't it being discussed in the tech press?
Or will a capture card not pick it up?

despite Keplers being overpriced these days...im glad I went for the 'safer' option when it comes to multi-GPU
that said, Farcry 3 was such a stuttering mess it was game-breaking.
Edited by twitchyzero - 3/29/13 at 11:07am
     
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post #237 of 420
Nvidia marketing is hitting hard.
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post #238 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by twitchyzero View Post

pardon me for being a noob
if AMD users are claiming Radeon Pro virtually eliminates most stuttering problems
why isn't it being discussed in the tech press?
Or will a capture card not pick it up?

despite Keplers being overpriced these days...im glad I went for the 'safer' option.

Thats a good question. Radeon pro have bugs after all one person make the developing.

But i cant really tell you why they dont use it. It have huge amount of choices and settings. Even SSAO,sweetfx dynamic vsync,dynamic framarate cap etc etc
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post #239 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by twitchyzero View Post

pardon me for being a noob
if AMD users are claiming Radeon Pro virtually eliminates most stuttering problems
why isn't it being discussed in the tech press?
Or will a capture card not pick it up?

despite Keplers being overpriced these days...im glad I went for the 'safer' option when it comes to multi-GPU
that said, Farcry 3 was such a stuttering mess it was game-breaking.

Mostly because any type of vsync/frame limiter/frame timing tool wouldn't be helpful in seeing the flesh and blood of what a card(s) can do when ungoverned. It would almost completely remove the stuttering/micro-stutter and make latency/frame spacing comparisons moot.
     
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post #240 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

It is, though..Variation creates microstutter and is what causes you to notice the stuttering more, you'll notice it more when the latency is jumping from say, 16.7 to 30ms every few frames more than it just being at 25ms constantly despite the first example being at a lower latency more...Why do you think games need more FPS than movies? Movies are at a constant 24fps which is enough to create the illusion of smooth movement, games going from 60fps constant down to 30fps when some massive explosions take place will have a noticable stutter despite being at a higher FPS than the movie the entire time.
No no, I mean frame time testing doesn't exist solely to test variation. Being able to test variation is a byproduct of being a more precise and accurate tool. You can put the data into tons of different statistics to gather everything from 99th Percentile Frame Time, to mean, to variation, to whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Measuring the amount of frames is not a problem, you'll get the same result from any point in the process.

The problems begin when you want to measure latency, frame times etc.

As far as I know fraps is about the only commonly used application that can measure those.
Frame times and frame rate is the same (in theory) data just displayed differently. The issue is that frame rate in terms of FPS is polled once a second and then averaged, rather than looking at the raw data. It's like judging image quality on a compressed jpeg.

I've repeated this countless times, but I feel like it still isn't getting through. I'm running out of analogies.
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