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Will K8L support AM2 socket? - Page 2

post #11 of 20
Thread Starter 
The AM3 CPUs will have, AFAIK , a DDR2 controller as well as a DDR3 controller. This is the reason they will be backward compatible with AM2 boards.

boredom: If there won't be any significant increase from HT3 - why do they implement it? the 4 core K8L is also a single socket CPU.
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post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGuyZ View Post
The AM3 CPUs will have, AFAIK , a DDR2 controller as well as a DDR3 controller. This is the reason they will be backward compatible with AM2 boards.

boredom: If there won't be any significant increase from HT3 - why do they implement it? the 4 core K8L is also a single socket CPU.
I honestly have no idea =/
    
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post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGuyZ View Post
The AM3 CPUs will have, AFAIK , a DDR2 controller as well as a DDR3 controller. This is the reason they will be backward compatible with AM2 boards.

boredom: If there won't be any significant increase from HT3 - why do they implement it? the 4 core K8L is also a single socket CPU.
As you may have noticed, AMD keeps its CPUs on mostly the same infrastructure. Although DP and MP Optys are on sk1207 and the others are on AM2, the differences between the CPUs are mostly in packaging. They are essentially the same architecture, the K8, and most of the features are common.
As you may have noticed on the AMD 4x4 QuadFX platform review there are some moments when the quad core is slower than a dual core of equivalent speed. Why is that? Placing quads on the same platform as duals tents to hamper with their performance and in this case it seems to be the aging architecture combined with the low HT speed.
My opinion is that the K8L (stars) will have no need of HT3.0 as long as there is one CPU in the system, but once you put 2 or 4 they'll need all the bandwidth they can get.
An article on Tom's Hardware shows the kind of scaling you can expect when having 2xCloverton CPUs (2xQuad Kentsfield server version)... they absolutely suck. That FSB is a major limiting factor for the Quad Intel and AMD doesn't want that to happen to the Stars. Here's a link to the article, you can see for yourself.
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post #14 of 20
Thread Starter 
thank you for this article. I will take a look.

However, the 4x4 platform is essentially different. So you can't really make that comprasion. 4x4 is actually 2 separate processors, each having 2 cores. There are 2 different sockets, therefore 2 different cpus that need to communicate through the bus/HT at any given time.
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post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGuyZ View Post
There are 2 different sockets, therefore 2 different cpus that need to communicate through the bus/HT at any given time.
That's exactly what I was saying. Fore one DC CPU (any current K8 DC) the current HT2.0is sufficient for memory requests and cache coherency traffic. Once we pass to a dual socket platform it seems that the current HT2.0 is pushed to the limit. My opinion (i have no numbers to support it) is that any of the 4 cores produces cache-coherency traffic with all the other 3 cores since they have no shared cache. This combined with the lame NUMA support of the Windows XP leads to what we've all been seeing. Of course this would be solved once AMD introduces the STARS since this will be done through the L3 cache and the HT bus would be off-loaded of this task. This is exactly why I think that Barcelona (the 1P STAR) will not NEED the HT3.0.

Since the K8L will be a unified architecture (like the K8 is now) the servers will certainly benefit the extra bandwidth, since using for example a 4 socket Star server would lead to similar, if not bigger problems.

Anyways, I hope you are more into he issues now. If interested another article here tackled this issue from a bit more technical perspective.
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post #16 of 20
Thread Starter 
Only K8L is supposed to support HT3.0 as far as I understand.
K8L will eventually have a real 4 core version(unlike 4x4, or today's Core2Quad). In this case - I don't see why the HT3.0 is necessary. And let's agree that the normal desktop user will not need more than a single processor running 2/4 cores. Which means , unless you are indeed running a server, that HT3.0 is useless.

Don't you agree?

I'm currently at work so I can't read through these articles. I will do so when I get home - so thanks again.
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post #17 of 20
I agree completely, I don't see any point in HT3.0 either, at least on the desktop side of things.

However, I think its introduction on desktops is at one hand had marketing (HT3.0 4000HTT even better than intel's 1333) and on the other hand it's for the sake of low prices. Having both Optys(sk1027 ones) and the Athlons with the same technology would put them on the same "assembly line" thus reducing manufacturing costs.

I'm pretty convinced that by "forcing" this upgrade together with the introduction of quads AMD is attacking the highly profitable high-end server segment which at this point contains only Intel's Itanic, IBM's Cell and Sun's UltraSparc. Who wouldn't want to cash 5000$/CPU? I can only hope this will force prices down once again for the desktops.
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post #18 of 20
Thread Starter 
Very well put. Thank you .
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post #19 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragosmp View Post
I agree completely, I don't see any point in HT3.0 either, at least on the desktop side of things.

However, I think its introduction on desktops is at one hand had marketing (HT3.0 4000HTT even better than intel's 1333) and on the other hand it's for the sake of low prices. Having both Optys(sk1027 ones) and the Athlons with the same technology would put them on the same "assembly line" thus reducing manufacturing costs.

I'm pretty convinced that by "forcing" this upgrade together with the introduction of quads AMD is attacking the highly profitable high-end server segment which at this point contains only Intel's Itanic, IBM's Cell and Sun's UltraSparc. Who wouldn't want to cash 5000$/CPU? I can only hope this will force prices down once again for the desktops.
Yeah, what's the point of running a 4ghz HT when the cores themselves are only running at 2.9ghz? That's a whole 1ghz faster than the core! But then again, PCI-E 2.0 is supposed to be right around the corner and perhaps it's to anticipate for the increased bandwidth. Hopefully it's just a future-proofing attempt so we won't need yet another new socket for a while.
    
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post #20 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetos316 View Post
But then again, PCI-E 2.0 is supposed to be right around the corner and perhaps it's to anticipate for the increased bandwidth.
You know, it's true, PCIe 2.0 would come real soon now, again a great number 5GT/s (I suppose GT/s means 5GB/s), so HT has to keep up. But what do you say about the fact that a high end VID card, the x1950PRO from ATI works darn well in AGP? It seems that 2.1GB/s is quite enough, and that's not bi-directional.

I bet that the 8800GTX would work very well (read not-bottlenecked) on AGP if anybody would be crazy enough to make such a card... at 2.1GB/s.
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