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[Gematsu] Sony shares new PlayStation 4 details at GDC - Page 9

post #81 of 100
Quote:
Loss per Unit Is 'Remarkable'
The combined materials and manufacturing costs for each device come to about $806 for the model with a 20GB hard drive, excluding the cost of the controller, cables, and packaging, iSuppli said.

With a suggested retail price of $499, that would mean Sony is taking a loss of about $307 on each console it sells. The differential for the 60GB model is less, with the cost exceeding the price tag by $241.

By comparison, the materials and manufacturing costs for the hard-drive version of Microsoft's rival device, the Xbox 360 are $323, iSuppli estimated. That's less than the suggested retail price of $399.

"It's common for video-game console makers to lose money on hardware, and make up for the loss via video game-title sales. Still, the size of Sony's loss per unit is remarkable, even for the video-game console business," iSuppli said.

Source

Do that every 3 years, and watch the death threats from investors pile up.
     
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post #82 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by PwndN00b View Post

My point was that they would have to change their manufacturing process to accommodate new tech. as well as updates to other hardware. This would keep the costs high, and unappealing to consumers.
Of course the Xbox 360 got updates. They were sick of warranting their previous model to heat failures.

That is true! They needed to stop the ring of death!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PwndN00b View Post

Source

Do that every 3 years, and watch the death threats from investors pile up.

If they just changed up a APU every 3 years they could keep all the same components without raising the costs. Considering tech drops in price every year. For example, they use their current APU, costs roughly $200 per, now in 3 years they could still get a far better unit for the same price, likely to still fit within the same Mobo. They would not need to adjust the process at all, they would simply change their inventory from running unit B to running unit C instead. It would be like anyone upgrading their CPU every 3 years, most of the time you can still stay within the same socket for 1-3 generations without issue, they use the same socket AM3+ for the next 6 years easy. The final 3 years of the console life might finally catch up. But this method would allow the console to stay fairly "current" without costing a large investment from Sony/Microsoft.

Will they? Doubt it, but since they are going more PC formatted it is a vieable option.
post #83 of 100
This was probably already posted but there is a comparison of unreal engine 4 on PC vs PS4.

Seems like these new consoles will most definitely be behind PC when they are released as it appears they are currently behind PC and PS4 hasn't even been released.

I believe xbox 360 was basically the same as pc hardware/graphics/visual/special effects...etc when it was released than PS4 will be to current PC hardware. And after watching the comparison PS4 is just meh. Sure it looks a heck of a lot better than ps3 but still doesn't look that great to what is already available and has been available for some time on PC.

And just a few months (or month) ago there were news articles posted about some game developers saying the new consoles were going to blow the PC out of the water in terms of visual fidelity etc...looks like that was all bs.

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post #84 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazumi View Post

The 8GB memory is DDR5 shared memory, the cost will be about $100 mim. Your also not including manufacturing costs into your math. Do you think they buy these systems and they put themselves together for free? Do those cases build there own molds? Do they wire themselves up?

You need to include
Costs of the mold
material costs of the case
Cleaning the final product,
Assembling the system
OS costs
Information in the box (manuals)
Box's
Shipping
Advertisement
Research and dev time

Sure, if you look at "just" the parts they are not that expensive, but folks fail to realize the additional costs that come with creating this product. And assume it's cut and dry. If you take all those costs, and add them to a "per" item value, it exceeds the $700 mark "per" box for the intitial run. Prices will drop a good deal once you cover all those initial costs.

No you are correct, they will have additional costs. They just won't be in the red that long. OS costs are going to be minimal, most of that will be extending the current OS and making it run on X86 as apposed to the Cell. As for Mold/Materal/Assembly and all that, it's pretty dang cheap when they build overseas. Most of that is pennies compared to the Dev process. Manuals/Box/Shipping should all go into overhead of the materials, so they won't be making much off the original sales. I was exaggerating when I said Q1, really by the end of the first year they should be close to breaking even. After that, the units sold should slowly be going into the green. I didn't go into Dev/Advertisement as that's all out of pocket costs.

Making the product itself is actually fairly cheap, the dev process is where the real money goes. The biggest issue they will face as far as that goes, is the API for other developers. They have to spend a lot of money and time out of pocket, even after release. That's always a profit loss, no matter what. It's the biggest issue, that's why you saw this current gen extended so long. A lot of the PS3 issues were with developers having issues with developing on the cell. This translates into Sony being forced to help in dev work if they want products on their console, so they probably ended up losing a ton of money over that. Which is my guess as to why they decided to head to the APU route. It will save them quite a bit of money as X86 is fairly well known, the only interesting part is going to be the parts of the API that will deal with AMD's specifics to the APU arch.

Bluntly, compared to last gen this gen is going to be a cakewalk in development. Which is the most expensive part of the process.

[edit]
Quote:
Originally Posted by icehotshot View Post

This was probably already posted but there is a comparison of unreal engine 4 on PC vs PS4.

Seems like these new consoles will most definitely be behind PC when they are released as it appears they are currently behind PC and PS4 hasn't even been released.

I believe xbox 360 was basically the same as pc hardware/graphics/visual/special effects...etc when it was released than PS4 will be to current PC hardware. And after watching the comparison PS4 is just meh. Sure it looks a heck of a lot better than ps3 but still doesn't look that great to what is already available and has been available for some time on PC.

And just a few months (or month) ago there were news articles posted about some game developers saying the new consoles were going to blow the PC out of the water in terms of visual fidelity etc...looks like that was all bs.


-=Video already placed once, no need for it twice=-

Nice comparison, you can also see the PS4 version "stutters" a little. Granted it's not yet fully optmized, it should be able to get close to what the 680 can do though. Won't see it right way, it'll take a while. Look how long it took the Xbox 360 to go from Halo 3 to Halo 4.
Edited by mushroomboy - 4/1/13 at 11:26pm
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post #85 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by icehotshot View Post

This was probably already posted but there is a comparison of unreal engine 4 on PC vs PS4.

Seems like these new consoles will most definitely be behind PC when they are released as it appears they are currently behind PC and PS4 hasn't even been released.

I believe xbox 360 was basically the same as pc hardware/graphics/visual/special effects...etc when it was released than PS4 will be to current PC hardware. And after watching the comparison PS4 is just meh. Sure it looks a heck of a lot better than ps3 but still doesn't look that great to what is already available and has been available for some time on PC.

And just a few months (or month) ago there were news articles posted about some game developers saying the new consoles were going to blow the PC out of the water in terms of visual fidelity etc...looks like that was all bs.


I follow the consoles because I enjoy the "competition" aspect as a consumer of tech. It just sparks my interest. So, I can tell you for a while now many of us have known this. The consoles will field components that will be roughly 2 years old on the 1st day of the release. The "blow your mind" specs is just company "hype" to the console crowd. Most gamers realize at this point they are way behind the power curve when it comes to their consoles, the fact we call out companies during tech demo's at CES and other events when they use a PC with a Xbox controller. Gamers are not fooled any more, they see these amazing games, then they are released an they've gotten only 60% of what they seen.

It's another reason why alot of teams are switching from consoles to PC as their "primary" system, look at Star citizen for example. Their team is built of many individuals with backgrounds from console first companies. Devs are tired of dumbing down their games. Devs are like artists they want to show off their skills, they want to improve themselves and give their "work" the best attention and effort they can. However consoles don't allow that, they are limited, they must run at 30 FPS without fail. You can't really push your game when you are so restricted. PC's don't have that issue, you can always expect more power on a 10-20% scale per year. Devs realize this, and hense why they are flocking to the PC in mass. We've entered back into the PC era, we might have to deal with "controller" input being programed into our games for console players to make the adjustment. But I tell you what, more of my hard core console friends have made the conversion in the last year than I ever expected.
post #86 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

No you are correct, they will have additional costs. They just won't be in the red that long. OS costs are going to be minimal, most of that will be extending the current OS and making it run on X86 as apposed to the Cell. As for Mold/Materal/Assembly and all that, it's pretty dang cheap when they build overseas. Most of that is pennies compared to the Dev process. Manuals/Box/Shipping should all go into overhead of the materials, so they won't be making much off the original sales. I was exaggerating when I said Q1, really by the end of the first year they should be close to breaking even. After that, the units sold should slowly be going into the green. I didn't go into Dev/Advertisement as that's all out of pocket costs.

Making the product itself is actually fairly cheap, the dev process is where the real money goes. The biggest issue they will face as far as that goes, is the API for other developers. They have to spend a lot of money and time out of pocket, even after release. That's always a profit loss, no matter what. It's the biggest issue, that's why you saw this current gen extended so long. A lot of the PS3 issues were with developers having issues with developing on the cell. This translates into Sony being forced to help in dev work if they want products on their console, so they probably ended up losing a ton of money over that. Which is my guess as to why they decided to head to the APU route. It will save them quite a bit of money as X86 is fairly well known, the only interesting part is going to be the parts of the API that will deal with AMD's specifics to the APU arch.

Bluntly, compared to last gen this gen is going to be a cakewalk in development. Which is the most expensive part of the process.

Haha, you just wanted to debate with me then agree? biggrin.gif

I've been saying by the end of the first year they would be clearing the "initial" costs. But I enjoy this type of talk, it keeps me busy at work when I've nothing to do by watch graphs change.
post #87 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazumi View Post

Haha, you just wanted to debate with me then agree? biggrin.gif

I've been saying by the end of the first year they would be clearing the "initial" costs. But I enjoy this type of talk, it keeps me busy at work when I've nothing to do by watch graphs change.

=S It wasn't exactly clear, you said 3-4 years to make a profit. I'm saying by the end of year 1 and close to year 2 they will start making a profit. Not by much, but it'll be out of the green way before a 3-4 year span (which you did say). So I guess we agree somewhat, since really in the scheme of business we aren't "off" in views by much. Guess what I'm saying is, they will break even before you think they will due to the choices they made this time around.

Granted, both of us don't know ANYTHING about the truth but I suspect we'd be closer than those who defend the 10yr cycle saying they won't start seeing the green till around 4-5 years. That's what happened this time, wasn't because they couldn't break even either. Though you know that, they made some pretty poor decisions on using new/unique hardware this time. Lesson learned for them though.
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post #88 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by icehotshot View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
This was probably already posted but there is a comparison of unreal engine 4 on PC vs PS4.

Seems like these new consoles will most definitely be behind PC when they are released as it appears they are currently behind PC and PS4 hasn't even been released.

I believe xbox 360 was basically the same as pc hardware/graphics/visual/special effects...etc when it was released than PS4 will be to current PC hardware. And after watching the comparison PS4 is just meh. Sure it looks a heck of a lot better than ps3 but still doesn't look that great to what is already available and has been available for some time on PC.

And just a few months (or month) ago there were news articles posted about some game developers saying the new consoles were going to blow the PC out of the water in terms of visual fidelity etc...looks like that was all bs.


Well, the PC version has PhysX, which not everyone on PC can use, and there's not a lot of good games with PhysX considering it's been out for like 6 years. So, while yes, the tech demo looks nicer on PC because there's more particles, it's still not the kind of thing we'd usually see on a typical PC game.

As for the lighting, I think people are grasping at straws here. All these side by side comparisons with AMD microstutter vs Nvidia are starting to show that there's an image quality difference between Nvidia and AMD. Hell, people are even saying Sleeping Dogs on Nvidia is flat out missing lights.

The big thing everyone is forgetting about PS4 is that it has Jaguar cores, which means AVX, BMI, etc, which means game developers are going to be able to target those instructions for games, and it's going to make it fly. You know the difference between x87 and SSE in a game like Skyrim? The difference between AVX and what we're using now is going to be just as big. That, and 8GB of GDDR5 is a lot of room to play with. Imagine how much of that ram the game itself is going to use just to function and imagine how much is going to be left for assets and high resolution textures. I'm expecting PS4 games to eat up 6GB of VRAM easily. That's not going to translate well to anything we have on PC except maybe Titan.

Just to take one demo, compare the two, and then to say PS4 is vastly inferior is a hasty generalization. We also don't know if the PS4 demo is even pushing the PS4 at all, let alone if it's near the maximum power of the PS4 (which I doubt it is).

But, as for the price, there's no way they're going to cost as much as last gen. Last gen MS and Sony could save a bunch of money through die shrinks. MS and AMD took Xenos from 90nm to 45nm in about 5 years. Now we have Nvidia saying that die shrinks aren't going to do much anymore and we're not seeing shrinks come as fast as we used to.

I think people are going to need to wake up and realize that even if Jaguar is weak compared to what we have, AVX and the rest of the instructions are going to blow us out of the water if we're not using those instructions on PC. I run Gentoo on my FX 8350 and I run FOSS benchmarks when I can to compare Gentoo with AVX and all the Piledriver goodies enabled, and Windows gets absolutely humiliated in Blender and if I ever get around to some x264 benchmarks, it'll probably get humiliated there too.

No one wants to admit their high end gaming rigs that have walked all over consoles for the last 5 years are about to get knocked down a peg, but it's probably going to happen.
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post #89 of 100
^ I agree partly, it just isn't going to happen quick. It's going to shape up quicker than last gen for sure, just won't see it off the bat and by the time we do... Well by the time we see those consoles beat out this gen, next gen will be out. Though this gen will be out before the console, so really they will have a lot to catch up too. I'll say they should go "blow to blow" so to speak with last gen (5XX/78XX - right those were the same gen? I don't pay attention enough) by the time they get released.

With that said, I also think developers have poorly done justice to this last gen of computers. Too much focus on console optimization, even Crytek is startin to show that. This hopefully changes, with a closer x86 instruction set than last time. The hope is that MS makes it easy to tweak their games for both the console API and the windows variant, MS knows both of those the best so they should be able to help out the game developer make the PC not suck so much. Only time will tell. (obviously I can't say what Sony will do, hopefully they find a nice way to "port" games over)
Edited by mushroomboy - 4/1/13 at 11:54pm
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post #90 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

=S It wasn't exactly clear, you said 3-4 years to make a profit. I'm saying by the end of year 1 and close to year 2 they will start making a profit. Not by much, but it'll be out of the green way before a 3-4 year span (which you did say). So I guess we agree somewhat, since really in the scheme of business we aren't "off" in views by much. Guess what I'm saying is, they will break even before you think they will due to the choices they made this time around.

Granted, both of us don't know ANYTHING about the truth but I suspect we'd be closer than those who defend the 10yr cycle saying they won't start seeing the green till around 4-5 years. That's what happened this time, wasn't because they couldn't break even either. Though you know that, they made some pretty poor decisions on using new/unique hardware this time. Lesson learned for them though.

Yea, I may have miss worded my direction of my statement as well. I was implying they would start getting into the hardware profit margin they where seeking with the PS3. Getting green is nice, but banking money is what they are aiming for. Sadly it took nearly 6 years for the PS3 to reach that limit. Granted they had some amazing ideas, and tech. But like a user before posted, a net lose of nearly $450 a system is no longer a option.

1st year run is always a net lose. They accept that and plan for the future profits. Anyone who thinks a 10 year cycle time is acceptable is just insane. We really stalled progression and the gaming industry with keeping a system around for 8 years. PC's are twice as strong as consoles on average.

What excites me though is how they will maximize the APU and shared DDR5 memory. I wish we had more details on how they plan to handle this without lowering performance. I'm sure they have figured it out, but this is the most interesting part! With DDR5 memory releasing in the console we will finally get it for the PC as well. This will go great with the current cost/storage of SSD's, if you could pare for example a Samsung 840 with DDR5, the PC would reach new heights. Though we might see something better than DDR5, maybe a whole new memory style in 2014? Interesting times we live in!
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