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post #21 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarhell View Post

A lot of people here calls them fake frame because they increase the average fps. smile.gif

I know where it comes from, but it is a stupid, pejorative name. They aren't fake frames, which would imply they were made solely to inflate the framerate, they are real frames which just don't get shown on screen for very long. Calling them fake implies that AMD is doing it on purpose, and no objective observer is saying that.
post #22 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

I know where it comes from, but it is a stupid, pejorative name. They aren't fake frames, which would imply they were made solely to inflate the framerate, they are real frames which just don't get shown on screen for very long. Calling them fake implies that AMD is doing it on purpose, and no objective observer is saying that.

I agree 100%
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post #23 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

I know where it comes from, but it is a stupid, pejorative name. They aren't fake frames, which would imply they were made solely to inflate the framerate, they are real frames which just don't get shown on screen for very long. Calling them fake implies that AMD is doing it on purpose, and no objective observer is saying that.


Well, they kind of are: they chose specifically to push frames out as fast as possible to result in good benchmark "FPS" measurements, while degrading the user experience, instead of (like nVidia) sacrificing review marketability to provide actual quality. And it's not even that they get displayed briefly, in many cases they are truncated before even fully drawing, or just skipped entirely.
Quote:
So what do we make of the problems of runt and dropped frames? They're troublesome for performance testing, because they get counted by benchmarking tools, helping to raise FPS averages and all the rest, but they have no tangible visual benefit to the end user.

Edited by GoldenTiger - 3/27/13 at 9:11pm
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post #24 of 43
I'm waiting for graphics cards reviewers to start looking at frame times and inverted frame times and to start doing ARIMA analysis(or similar) as part of their performance measure.


I do statistics for a living. Methods like that might be overkill in some cases, but they can shed new light on things if handled well.
If any graphics reviewer wants to take a look at things and really dive down deep, check out R
http://www.r-project.org/
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post #25 of 43
Damn...I remember back when just FPS was good enough. I feel old now.
     
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post #26 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenTiger View Post

Well, they kind of are: they chose specifically to push frames out as fast as possible to result in good benchmark "FPS" measurements, while degrading the user experience, instead of (like nVidia) sacrificing review marketability to provide actual quality. And it's not even that they get displayed briefly, in many cases they are truncated before even fully drawing, or just skipped entirely.

That's one interpretation. Another is that it is a by-product of some other decision they made, or that it just reflects poor driver design or optimization. A bit early to be claiming they did it intentionally.
post #27 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

I know where it comes from, but it is a stupid, pejorative name. They aren't fake frames, which would imply they were made solely to inflate the framerate, they are real frames which just don't get shown on screen for very long. Calling them fake implies that AMD is doing it on purpose, and no objective observer is saying that.

Not all frames are created equal, except in the eyes of FRAPS who counts them the same regardless of how long they are displayed on-screen. Calling said ephemeral frames "fake" doesn't necessarily lead to implying that they exist solely due to intentional deception by AMD.

I'm a pro-NVIDIA guy, but I can see how these extra/fake/runt/etc. frames that show up on a couple scan-lines at most are due to legitimate technical oversights (whether hardware and/or driver implementation) and not some hare-brained scheme to pump up the benchmark stats.
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post #28 of 43
Why not just stick with the terminology all the review sites are using, which is runt frames, instead of coming up with yet another name (and one that has such negative connotations). Using words like "fake" just inflames and empowers the people who want to make this a big AMD/Nvidia issue instead of discussing it rationally.
Edited by Forceman - 3/27/13 at 10:56pm
post #29 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

That's one interpretation. Another is that it is a by-product of some other decision they made, or that it just reflects poor driver design or optimization. A bit early to be claiming they did it intentionally.

End result's the same, regardless. However, I *SINCERELY* doubt that if nVidia was aware of it existing as something to work around, that AMD somehow wasn't.
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post #30 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenTiger View Post

End result's the same, regardless. However, I *SINCERELY* doubt that if nVidia was aware of it existing as something to work around, that AMD somehow wasn't.

If you believe what they said to Anandtech, then they just assumed it was out of their control and that they asumed Nvidia had the same problems. I agree though, that I find that hard to believe, since we've known for quite a while that Nvidia was doing frame metering to smooth out SLI. My guess is that they deliberately tuned the drivers for flat-out performance and willingly accepted the trade-off of poor latency, but that they didn't purposely "pad" the numbers. But I'm also willing to believe that it is just down to a lack of familiarity with GCN, since they do seem to have a smaller driver team than Nvidia.
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