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Help with 12V and 5V. - Page 2

post #11 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blooddrunk View Post

Luckily learning automotive has indirectly made me better at computer electronics. They both use 12 and 5 volt. lol.

I wish I could learn something useful. Welp.
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post #12 of 22
Amp load goes up as voltage goes down.

Volts * Amps = Watts
12v * .5a = 6w
5v * 1.2a = 6w
post #13 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Amp load goes up as voltage goes down.

Volts * Amps = Watts
12v * .5a = 6w
5v * 1.2a = 6w

Yes, with constant power then lower voltage means higher current. Just in case somebody reads this and applies the wrong context in interpreting it, let's spell it out to avoid any confusion.

When you apply a lower voltage to a fan, you are not delivering the same power to it. The fan spins slower because the voltage being lower causes the electric power consumption to decrease, hence less mechanical work / time is being done, so less airflow.

e.g. for a couple fans, the current and power drawn at a given input voltage
Code:
.                                   5.1V           6.9V           12V
Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-15     35mA (0.18W)   45mA (0.31W)    78mA (0.94W)
Enermax Magma                   65mA (0.33W)   88mA (0.61W)   160mA (1.92W)
measurement data source
post #14 of 22
Good catch Mikeaj. thumb.gif
I should have explained that better. doh.gif
post #15 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys.

Right, so since there's no reliable way of finding out by just looking at the data on the sticker, it looks like I'll have to do some experimenting.

But I'll probably just go ahead with using a 12V adapter and a large 14CM Lian Li on the desk.

That will keep me cool while looking cool. :3
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post #16 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Amp load goes up as voltage goes down.

Volts * Amps = Watts
12v * .5a = 6w
5v * 1.2a = 6w

Ohm's Law at work.

I'd throw on a cheap toggle switch so you can cool at will. Maybe a nice cardboard shroud painted up and hot glued on to act as a director/deflector.
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post #17 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalcrack View Post

Ohm's Law at work.

I'd throw on a cheap toggle switch so you can cool at will. Maybe a nice cardboard shroud painted up and hot glued on to act as a director/deflector.
Ohm's Law if the load remains the same..

But as mikeaj said
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

Yes, with constant power then lower voltage means higher current. Just in case somebody reads this and applies the wrong context in interpreting it, let's spell it out to avoid any confusion.

When you apply a lower voltage to a fan, you are not delivering the same power to it. The fan spins slower because the voltage being lower causes the electric power consumption to decrease, hence less mechanical work / time is being done, so less airflow.

e.g. for a couple fans, the current and power drawn at a given input voltage
Code:
.                                   5.1V           6.9V           12V
Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-15     35mA (0.18W)   45mA (0.31W)    78mA (0.94W)
Enermax Magma                   65mA (0.33W)   88mA (0.61W)   160mA (1.92W)
measurement data source
Fan motor does not try to remain at full speed/load so as voltage drops so does the amp load... as the above data shows.
Edited by doyll - 4/2/13 at 1:24pm
post #18 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Ohm's Law if the load remains the same..

But as mikeaj said
Fan motor does not try to remain at full speed/load so as voltage drops so does the amp load... as the above data shows.

I see.
Currently running a 140mm Lian Li ball off a Molex connection - it cools splendidly at 12V whilst keeping very silent so its fine to have it run at full speed.

If current drops with voltage though, I wonder if it would drop far enough to warrant running a Nidec TA450DC off a 5V 1A charger like the Apple iPhone triangle thing.
Those are pretty solid things, and a TA450DC is a force to be reckoned with even at 5V.
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post #19 of 22
You know, if you're quoting Ohm's Law, that usually implies an ohmic (linear) device, one where current is proportional to voltage: V = I * R where V is voltage, I is current, R is resistance. i.e. follows Ohm's Law. Nothing about Ohm's Law implies constant power.

If something is ohmic, then seeing as P = I^2 * R = V^2 / R, where P is power, then power consumed is proportional to the square of the voltage. Hence according to Ohm's Law, with a lower voltage you would expect much lower power draw. Seeing as a fan converts input electrical energy to mechanical motion + heat + noise, with less electric power input you should expect less mechanical motion and airflow out.

It could be measurement error (or maybe there's some effect that doesn't scale linearly, like the friction or air resistance, or maybe in the DC/AC converter, or whatever else?), but the fan data above shows a slightly nonlinear relationship between voltage and current, so it's not completely ohmic. It's relatively close though. Wouldn't really surprise me too much either way, considering all the parts involved. It's not exactly just a single passive circuit element.


Nidec TA450DC:
B34511 -- at 12V nominal, 110 cfm, 2700 rpm, 440 mA, 5.28W
B34659 -- at 12V nominal, 130 cfm, 3200 rpm, 770 mA, 9.24W

So at 5V you'd expect close to 183 mA and 320 mA respectively. But do they even start up at 5V? Some models won't.

However, those specs are for operation. Fan start-up power consumption is a lot higher than what it takes to keep the fan running, same as for hard drives and other devices that have motors. I don't know if this is typical at all, but Nidec's spec for the fan corresponding to Scythe AP-15 (1850 rpm at 12V) is 83 mA draw normally, 360 mA on startup. That's a several times higher. Actually, Gentle Typhoons aren't that typical at all—they have very low power consumption compared to most for the airflow.

Can a charger take the extra load for the brief startup period? Depends on how it's built. I would think the B34511 is safe at just running from a 5V 1A charger though, as even 5x typical draw should be okay. B34659 might be another matter.
post #20 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

You know, if you're quoting Ohm's Law, that usually implies an ohmic (linear) device, one where current is proportional to voltage: V = I * R where V is voltage, I is current, R is resistance. i.e. follows Ohm's Law. Nothing about Ohm's Law implies constant power.

If something is ohmic, then seeing as P = I^2 * R = V^2 / R, where P is power, then power consumed is proportional to the square of the voltage. Hence according to Ohm's Law, with a lower voltage you would expect much lower power draw. Seeing as a fan converts input electrical energy to mechanical motion + heat + noise, with less electric power input you should expect less mechanical motion and airflow out.

It could be measurement error (or maybe there's some effect that doesn't scale linearly, like the friction or air resistance, or maybe in the DC/AC converter, or whatever else?), but the fan data above shows a slightly nonlinear relationship between voltage and current, so it's not completely ohmic. It's relatively close though. Wouldn't really surprise me too much either way, considering all the parts involved. It's not exactly just a single passive circuit element.


Nidec TA450DC:
B34511 -- at 12V nominal, 110 cfm, 2700 rpm, 440 mA, 5.28W
B34659 -- at 12V nominal, 130 cfm, 3200 rpm, 770 mA, 9.24W

So at 5V you'd expect close to 183 mA and 320 mA respectively. But do they even start up at 5V? Some models won't.

However, those specs are for operation. Fan start-up power consumption is a lot higher than what it takes to keep the fan running, same as for hard drives and other devices that have motors. I don't know if this is typical at all, but Nidec's spec for the fan corresponding to Scythe AP-15 (1850 rpm at 12V) is 83 mA draw normally, 360 mA on startup. That's a several times higher. Actually, Gentle Typhoons aren't that typical at all—they have very low power consumption compared to most for the airflow.

Can a charger take the extra load for the brief startup period? Depends on how it's built. I would think the B34511 is safe at just running from a 5V 1A charger though, as even 5x typical draw should be okay. B34659 might be another matter.

Nice and detailed explanation. Were you enrolled in EEE at some point in your life as well?

Anyway the TA450DC I'm using is the B35502-35 Dell model, from an Optiplex 745 Tower. That draws a peak current of 12V 1.4A according to the sticker - Nidec being Nidec they don't really lie.

Seeing as how it mostly draws half of its nominal current when running at 5V, so I can safely say that the 35502 will take up around 700mA peak on 5V?

Good fans from Delta, AVC, Nidec, etc. tend to notate the maximum power draw on the sticker. For example, my EFC0912BF says it'll draw 0.68A and then in a bracket on the sticker it says (running current 0.32A). Not too bad for a 4,600RPM 92mm fan.

Am I right to say then, that the 35502 will take up 700~800mA tops on startup at 5V, and proceed to settle down to around 350mA while spinning?

Also, to address the query - yes. It will start perfectly on 5V. Plenty of cheap fans fail to start on 5V but I've yet to see a ball bearing axial fan not start on 12V.

I've had my fair share of experience with 2-3 amp blowers from the likes of Datech and AVC - those won't even run at 7V. At 9V they're too noisy to be used in comfort and at 12V I might as well be using a few RR Trent engines to cool myself!
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