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post #471 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryude View Post

Right, I'm glad we can agree on that. AMD is most certainly weaker than Intel, but look at their budget vs Intel. Look at the fact that Intel decides when it changes process nodes, while AMD has to wait on GF or TSMC.

We're already seeing the effects of no competition, just imagine how expensive and how minor the improvements will be if AMD is completely gone. That's why I'm an AMD guy, because they're good enough and I like competition.

Exactly, competition always benefit the consumer, if Athlon 64X2 never happened we wouldn't have Core 2.
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post #472 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryude View Post

Windows is obviously pro-Intel, the same reason game developers are pro-Windows. Make a product that you can sell to the most people while spending the least amount of money. AMD is compatible with the same applications as Intel, they just ignore all the Intel-specific optimizations. Of course, they don't compile with any AMD-specific optimizations either.

Not really, most code is uarch agnostic. You generally get i686 or x86_64 optmized code. That runs the same flags on either chip, very generic optimization flags for most compilers. This is in Intel's favor though, since they have raw performance on their side. Single thread applications benefit greatly from this, which they like.

Heck, wouldn't be surprised if the windows kernel is a generic binary blob with no real optimizations either way. For the most part, you don't need a kernel to be that well optimized. Latency isn't a huge issue and neither are resources, we can continue down this path as long as the hardware drastically moves faster than the software (which it does).

Windows isn't Intel bias, most software isn't. The problem is, we haven't had software really push the CPU with the exception of benchmarks. This has gone on for a long time, I sported a single core AMD64 and skipped the entire generation of dual core chips. Why? Because we didn't even see much multi-threading until way later, when I finally hopped on the dual-core bandwagon it was with the Phenom II chips in 09. Everything I needed to do was done on that single chip, as everything was focused differently. We've had dual core chips for how long? 7+ years?

Thing is, we've had dual core chips for almost a decade now. In those 7 years, we have gone from dual-core to deca-core architectures. What have we undergone software wise? The ability for the average program to use a dual core chip, woop woop. A few applications use threads better, a FEW games do well (well being a metric somewhere above "doing ok"). So what does that mean? It means we are still on the stagnant mindset for optimizing single threaded performance (with some multi-thread pressure - mainly dual-core oriented), most developers take that route. Thanks to the console, we have some multi-thread support going to the PC but that is still somewhat dead.

The end result will probably be us complaining about these same issues 5 years down the road (until quads become the desktop norm). Some of us won't even upgrade in the next 3+ years, my CPU might actually reach a 5+yr cycle without needing a replacement if the pace continues (already on 4 years and going strong, currently aiming for 7+ year "console life").

Just some of the issues are here, we have a huge amount of reasons as to why Intel would perform better. What could be done about it, the strengths of both sets of hardware. Ultimately it comes down to time, with Intel being the single threaded performance king at the right time in a decade. Development is somewhat stalling in certain areas, because the "need" isn't quite there yet. AMD is trying to push things for a change, it's just hard to re-train years worth of learning. The HSA/Multi-threading train isn't going forward easy, no thanks to parts played on either side. So now, as software is concerned, we are going to be stuck with single-thread performance with some multi-threading thrown in.

As for compiler optimizations, you won't see either side use anything drastically amazing. Windows is going to stay pretty agnostic from either side, if the kernel doesn't support the function then developers have little reason to use the compiler flags. So you are going to get generic compiled code, which is FINE, at least when you look at how the code needs to run on so many different hardware specifications.
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post #473 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryude View Post

Exactly, Intel sets the rules and AMD must design their processors around those rules. I guess considering that, AMD does pretty good.
Well it isn't hard to swipe all those arguments off the table and after that get back to the main discussion.
Even under Linux a equally cored rig high end server intel performs way better (core/core) (usage/usage) so those claiming that it is only because a amd proc isn't utilized fully is foolish.
Their IPS and their transistor size are what is keeping their processors back.

If they improve enough and make a processor/platform(chipset) which will scale up to 8 processors or more without the use of ScaleMP software the platform after Brickland might be the AMD flavoured one.

FTFY. You should know better than to think IPC actually means anything.

Anyway, ya, the multi-thousand dollar Intel Server chip performs better core for core then the <$200 AMD 8-core for consumers. Good comparison. rolleyes.gif At least compare it to an Opteron if you're going to go server-world on us. And since AMD has a 16-core chip (at 3.2Ghz all-core turbo) and Intel is stuck at 10+HT (For over 2 times the cost at minimum mind you, for a 2Ghz CPU. 3 times the cost for their best one, at 2.4Ghz.), Intel will never actually be matched up core-for-core with AMD. Bad comparison.

Anyway, it's obviously not only Windows holding them back, but it does hold them back more than it does Intel.
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post #474 of 718
Are we forgetting about the lawsuit in 2009, which AMD won, due to Intel's compiler crippling AMD hardware?
Quote:
Many software programmers consider Intel's compiler the best optimizing compiler on the market, and it is often the preferred compiler for the most critical applications. Likewise, Intel is supplying a lot of highly optimized function libraries for many different technical and scientific applications. In many cases, there are no good alternatives to Intel's function libraries.

Unfortunately, software compiled with the Intel compiler or the Intel function libraries has inferior performance on AMD and VIA processors. The reason is that the compiler or library can make multiple versions of a piece of code, each optimized for a certain processor and instruction set, for example SSE2, SSE3, etc. The system includes a function that detects which type of CPU it is running on and chooses the optimal code path for that CPU. This is called a CPU dispatcher. However, the Intel CPU dispatcher does not only check which instruction set is supported by the CPU, it also checks the vendor ID string. If the vendor string says "GenuineIntel" then it uses the optimal code path. If the CPU is not from Intel then, in most cases, it will run the slowest possible version of the code, even if the CPU is fully compatible with a better version.
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post #475 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

FTFY. You should know better than to think IPC actually means anything.

Anyway, ya, the multi-thousand dollar Intel Server chip performs better core for core then the <$200 AMD 8-core for consumers. Good comparison. rolleyes.gif At least compare it to an Opteron if you're going to go server-world on us. And since AMD has a 16-core chip (at 3.2Ghz all-core turbo) and Intel is stuck at 10+HT (For over 2 times the cost at minimum mind you, for a 2Ghz CPU. 3 times the cost for their best one, at 2.4Ghz.), Intel will never actually be matched up core-for-core with AMD. Bad comparison.

Anyway, it's obviously not only Windows holding them back, but it does hold them back more than it does Intel.
I wasn't talking about that I was talking xeon vs interlagos I know the total platform cost of the AMD system is about 1/8 of that of intels mission critical segment but price is not what you should use to determine how good a chip is it is performance/power consumption.
post #476 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryude View Post

Are we forgetting about the lawsuit in 2009, which AMD won, due to Intel's compiler crippling AMD hardware?

That's no longer an issue post 2009, is it ?

EDIT: If it still is, EU better gets suing.
Edited by MoGTy - 4/5/13 at 2:46pm
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post #477 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoGTy View Post

IIRC that's no longer an issue post 2009 ?

EDIT: If it still is, EU better gets suing.

The fact is Intel has done everything it can to illegally disrupt non-Intel hardware from being viable. We don't know if that is still an issue, perhaps someone should try changing their vendorID with a virtualization and see if performance improves.
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post #478 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryude View Post

The fact is Intel has done everything it can to illegally disrupt non-Intel hardware from being viable. We don't know if that is still an issue, perhaps someone should try changing their vendorID with a virtualization and see if performance improves.

Yes maybe someone should, although, I imagine an other method would be used. Otherwise, someone, at some point would've encountered it in the past 4 years. Or that's what I'm hoping anyway.
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post #479 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

FTFY. You should know better than to think IPC actually means anything.

Anyway, ya, the multi-thousand dollar Intel Server chip performs better core for core then the <$200 AMD 8-core for consumers. Good comparison. rolleyes.gif At least compare it to an Opteron if you're going to go server-world on us. And since AMD has a 16-core chip (at 3.2Ghz all-core turbo) and Intel is stuck at 10+HT (For over 2 times the cost at minimum mind you, for a 2Ghz CPU. 3 times the cost for their best one, at 2.4Ghz.), Intel will never actually be matched up core-for-core with AMD. Bad comparison.

Anyway, it's obviously not only Windows holding them back, but it does hold them back more than it does Intel.
I wasn't talking about that I was talking xeon vs interlagos I know the total platform cost of the AMD system is about 1/8 of that of intels mission critical segment but price is not what you should use to determine how good a chip is it is performance/power consumption.

You mean like how Intel's slowest 10-core is 105w TDP and all the others are 130w TPD? AMD's biggest is 140w TDP. Everything below that, including the four other 16-core chips, is 115W TDP. Sorry, one of the 16-core chips is 85w TDP.

So about that power/performance ratio...
Edited by KyadCK - 4/5/13 at 2:55pm
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post #480 of 718
It would be an obvious impairment (compilers), especially if people went into the FOSS world. They can't really use tactics like that anymore, it wouldn't last long and the damage could be irreparable. The facts speak, Intel dominates single core performance and has for a long time (or at least, made us think it has and kept up a good appearance). For now, as far as we are concerned it holds true. AMD has designed a chip that well suits a multi-threaded scenario, the unfortunate issues with this is the lack of software in the industry. That's pretty much where things stand.
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