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[xbitlabs] AMD: We Are On Track With Steamroller Micro-Architecture in 2013. - Page 53  

post #521 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

wrong, motherboard prices are based on features not what socket is on them, try again.

http://pcpartpicker.com/parts/motherboard/#s=4,22,14&sort=a6

Yes and no, their is still a bit of expense going with Intel. I'm not exactly sure the reason, debated it with a friend. The best we can come up with is licensing fees are cheaper for the AMD side.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157329
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131887

Notice they are extremely close in specs, however the "cheaper" brand offers a tad more at the same price.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128555

Interesting enough, the same applies to Gigabyte. It offers less for the same price, well 2USD difference. I call that pennies. Going up in price, you don't really see much of an increase in features.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128556

Here you see a board priced a bit more evenly feature wise than the ASRock variant. Why did I bother with this? To prove pricing isn't feature based, it's quite the opposite. A company bases it's product and the expense off many variables, one of those is popularity/perceived reliability. If they can get away with a higher price, just because people feel they are better, they will.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157323

The AM3+ socket, some features are a bit different. However, so is the price. It offers things that the more expensive products on the Intel side don't, even their "pricier" variants.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157305

An equal price comparison from the same company, you'll notice features are a bit different still. Most notably is the lesser audio (6 channels) over other components, that give you better (depends) options.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128521

There we go, a well defined company that is established to be good. Note the difference in the previous $90 gigabyte board for Intel? You don't say, it has more to offer? Interesting, very interesting.

Overall, their is a small variance in price going from AMD based solutions to Intel based solutions. If you look around, trust me I've got free time to do it, you'll notice this. It isn't much, then again saving $20 could give you that case you want. Even better yet, it could buy you some games or a better mouse. Any way you spin this, Intel generally costs more for what you get out of the product. It's been known, not many people argue about it because it is such an old subject. Generally the motherboard prices aren't THAT far off, when you compare them to the CPU pricing. However, they are on average higher for the features you get. This reflects on the standard business model, Titan anyone?
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post #522 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

All I needed to read to know you don't know what you're saying.

Yes. The AMDs make less heat (see TDP) outside the absolute strongest CPU, which is still only a 10w difference, and they cost $3300 less. Per CPU. The price scaling is perfectly linear. It doesn't matter if you buy 10 or 10 million, it will take over 300 years for energy costs to match the CPU cost.

Don't assume, don't be a fanboy, do the math.
I compared the best CPU available on Intel's site (Note quad-channel memory, it is SB-e), against the best available from AMD.

When Intel releases a new CPU, you may compare. Until then, don't assume, don't be a fanboy, do the math.

AMD wins becasue the extremely small power cost does not make up the massive CPU cost that takes over 300 years to make up for.

.
Don't keep bringing up TDP as power consumption those are 2 different things.
Highest end interlagos equals highest end E5-26XX V1 still doesn't make me not want to put up sunglasses and say deal with it as a e5-2660+ can be had for 150 euros a pop non retail.(and use significantly less power however I'm not going to bring up my every E5-26XX chip has 3 qpi links > e5-46XX argument)
A simple case of nobody is right if everybody is wrong don't you think?

No, you're just wrong. tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post


So stop pulling magical numbers out of nowhere and prove it, because TDP says more than nothing. I think you underestimate the power consumption of 10 intel cores and 30MB of L3 cache.

http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Xeon-E7-8870-vs-AMD-Opteron-6386-SE

Only reference I have seen. Puts the AMD chip a whole 8w higher power consumtion. Wow, what a difference. rolleyes.gif

So, do some math for me, how long will it take for the energy bill to make up for the extra $3000 price difference?

I gave you actual power numbers, you just ignored it. Once again, stop making up numbers, you're starting to look silly now. tongue.gif
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post #523 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Except you don't need twice the power consumption, and the AMD chips run colder most of the time.

Again, stop making up magic numbers, make proof. tongue.gif
if you cluster a lot of systems you will lose a tad of performance look at the ScaleMP charts(depending on amount of rigs clustered).
In a big cluster you will lose at least 40% performance over the more sockets per system Intel/supermicro(or tyan) platform
Therefor you will need 3 systems outfited with 4P interlagos to equal a single E7 8P rig.
3x 700W vs 1x 1200W (yeah it isn't double but it is still a 75% increase in usage for the same performance)
post #524 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Except you don't need twice the power consumption, and the AMD chips run colder most of the time.

Again, stop making up magic numbers, make proof. tongue.gif
if you cluster a lot of systems you will lose a tad of performance look at the ScaleMP charts(depending on amount of rigs clustered).
In a big cluster you will lose at least 40% performance over the more sockets per system Intel/supermicro(or tyan) platform
Therefor you will need 3 systems outfited with 4P interlagos to equal a single E7 8P rig.
3x 700W vs 1x 1200W (yeah it isn't double but it is still a 75% increase in usage for the same performance)

Still waiting on those benchmarks.

And not Cinebench please, when you buy Server chips, it isn't for some petty benchmark that you would be interested in.

Oh, and you can get 8-socket AMD boards too.
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post #525 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Still waiting on those benchmarks.

And not Cinebench please, when you buy Server chips, it isn't for some petty benchmark that you would be interested in.

Oh, and you can get 8-socket AMD boards too.
http://www.scalemp.com/performance

8 socket amd boards thought it was 4P max that would be pretty interesting from a price point of view.
Still doesn't change that I'm in for the best though biggrin.gif

Edit: looked it up they weren't G34 all socket F outdated stuff would've been great though.
post #526 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Still waiting on those benchmarks.

And not Cinebench please, when you buy Server chips, it isn't for some petty benchmark that you would be interested in.

Oh, and you can get 8-socket AMD boards too.
http://www.scalemp.com/performance

8 socket amd boards thought it was 4P max that would be pretty interesting from a price point of view.
Still doesn't change that I'm in for the best though biggrin.gif

Edit: looked it up they weren't G34 all socket F outdated stuff would've been great though.

All outdated, no 4P AMD ones, and no 8P Intel ones that you claim.

Try again.
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post #527 of 718
Way to link benchmarks that don't matter to the current debate at all...

Also, 8 socket G34 rigs exist, I work on one daily. 128 core rigs with an incredibly well threaded render engine, and over a tb of ram, I'd like to see a Xeon rig catch that. (Hint, my company spent over a hundred grand on servers recently, believe me when I say they tried.)

Also, please grammar check edits... I can't argue what I can't read.
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post #528 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

Yes and no, their is still a bit of expense going with Intel. I'm not exactly sure the reason, debated it with a friend. The best we can come up with is licensing fees are cheaper for the AMD side.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157329
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131887

Notice they are extremely close in specs, however the "cheaper" brand offers a tad more at the same price.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128555

Interesting enough, the same applies to Gigabyte. It offers less for the same price, well 2USD difference. I call that pennies. Going up in price, you don't really see much of an increase in features.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128556

Here you see a board priced a bit more evenly feature wise than the ASRock variant. Why did I bother with this? To prove pricing isn't feature based, it's quite the opposite. A company bases it's product and the expense off many variables, one of those is popularity/perceived reliability. If they can get away with a higher price, just because people feel they are better, they will.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157323

The AM3+ socket, some features are a bit different. However, so is the price. It offers things that the more expensive products on the Intel side don't, even their "pricier" variants.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157305

An equal price comparison from the same company, you'll notice features are a bit different still. Most notably is the lesser audio (6 channels) over other components, that give you better (depends) options.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128521

There we go, a well defined company that is established to be good. Note the difference in the previous $90 gigabyte board for Intel? You don't say, it has more to offer? Interesting, very interesting.

Overall, their is a small variance in price going from AMD based solutions to Intel based solutions. If you look around, trust me I've got free time to do it, you'll notice this. It isn't much, then again saving $20 could give you that case you want. Even better yet, it could buy you some games or a better mouse. Any way you spin this, Intel generally costs more for what you get out of the product. It's been known, not many people argue about it because it is such an old subject. Generally the motherboard prices aren't THAT far off, when you compare them to the CPU pricing. However, they are on average higher for the features you get. This reflects on the standard business model, Titan anyone?

LOL! i can appreciate the time and effort you put into gathering your "information". however i find a major flaw with your prices; they are all from newegg. now if all etailers set their prices the same then its all good. but by helping several hundreds of folks find the best pricing for their builds newegg isn't always the best, thats why i linked to pcpartpicker. now you may pointed out certain manufacturer's pricing is just not logical. but lets take for instance the $90 mobo you posted:

GIGABYTE GA-970A-D3 $89.99
and compare it to:
GIGABYTE GA-970A-DS3 $79.99

so what is the $10 difference?
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/comparison/list.aspx?ck=2&pids=4122,3908

though the DS has 2 more USB headers and 6 channel audio I/O and " Trusted Platform Module (TPM) header" (whatever that is) it appears the D3 is worth the $10 because it has Realtek GbE LAN chip instead of the Realtek RTL8111E chip ??? so not disputing that part

now where you get the $20 difference is a bit mysterious to me. but still its all well and good if there is a discussion on why motherboard manufacturers set their prices and why an etailer would adjust them for sales. however they you may find a detail that would dispute pricing as far as features, ok i ought to amend that to features and component quality

there still is no validity to the argument that everyone knows intel motherboards are more expensive than amd. and that is what i am replying to.

but dude seriously? you spent that time and effort just to prove . . . . what now? oh that mysteriously you get $20 to spend on a case if you go for AMD. . . go poke someone else.
Edited by looniam - 4/5/13 at 6:47pm
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post #529 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malo View Post

if you OC (witch almost all of us do here on OCN) you can throw power consumption out the window

Excuses.
Quote:
if you really cared so much about power comsumption, buy a netbook lol :pp

More excuses. Don't dismiss obvious advantages. Taking all other factors out, i5-2500K is nearly a superior product in all ways.
Quote:
and everybody knows AMD setups are generally less expencive (mobo's)

You can find good prices on both AMD and Intel setups.


Intel
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007627+600093976+600041400&QksAutoSuggestion=&ShowDeactivatedMark=False&Configurator=&IsNodeId=1&Subcategory=280&description=&hisInDesc=&Ntk=&CFG=&SpeTabStoreType=&AdvancedSearch=1&srchInDesc=

AMD
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007625%20600138080%20600158776%20600008296%20600041408&IsNodeId=1&bop=And&ShowDeactivatedMark=False&Order=PRICE&PageSize=20

You can find motherboards at every price point with similar features. This is just the cold hard truth, and whether you're a die hard overclocker, or a casual gamer, both companies have plenty to offer.
Intel's advantage is that for 95% of consumers out there, i5-2500K is the better buy.
Quote:
*edit*
I dont get your point of posting the benchmarks?

To show that i5-2500K is superior in most cases, or in my and many others' situations, it is superior in all applications we do.
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post #530 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by HanSomPa View Post

Anand Bench CPU comparison.
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/701?vs=697

i5 3570K
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116504
FX 8350
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113284

i5 wins in like 80% of the benchmarks? On top of using less power, unless you have a very specific workload, why should you buy an FX8350? You can also OC the i5 more than the FX I think. Not sure, haven't looked around at OC.net's average OCs yet.

I don't want to be that guy, but read the last few pages of the thread. You may learn something about how Blizzard compiled code is crippled on AMD hardware and it's not representative of its full performance.

As far as I am concerned, the only benchmarks that are a true and even test of raw CPU performance are ones where the tester compiles it themselves so they're aware of of the compiler optimizations done and that the source is available and the tester is capable of understanding it.

People are learning that if one product is running x87 code when it doesn't even have the x87 part of the CPU and the other is using SSE natively in an application, that a benchmark of that application is meangingless.

I could *easily* go into Linux, compile Blender on an Intel to not even use SSE, let alone AVX, SSE versions > 1, etc and then bench it against Piledriver with AVX, SSE, FMA, etc.

Does that seem fair to you? Because that's basically what Anandtech Bench is. Although SYSMARK is an exception, because Intel basically owns BAPCO.

So really, is it much of a surprise that 3570k is winning "80%" of the time like you claim?

If you want to prove that 3570k is superior to FX 8350, you need to prove that all of those benchmarks are using fair instruction sets on both platforms. Otherwise all you're doing is proving that a specific piece of software is faster on a specific piece of hardware. You're basically testing a small sample size that you have no idea how it works, and then saying that every piece of software in the entire world will behave the same.

The reasons why AMD guys don't trust Anandtech is that they've been knowingly using benchmarks that are compiled or programmed in a way that more efficiently uses Intel's CPUs resources than AMD's.

I don't think you "lol look at the graphs!!! THIS ONE IS BETTER BETTER GRAPHS LOL!!!" understand that I could compile benchmarks my own way and make FX 8350 humiliate 3570k. Most benchmarks don't have anything to do with raw performance and more to do with the compiler. Hell, I'd bet I could "deoptimize" a 3930k to lose to an FX 8320 if I had to.

I showed you before the extreme example with CRAY and I've given you my anecdote about how the same margin of improvement applies to Blender as well. Then I linked you to FX 8350 and 3770k Blender benchmark and let you extrapolate. What was I showing you? That software optimizations can make something twice as fast. When you sit here and call something absolutely superior because it's 10% faster in some benchmarks, you look like you're completely inept and you have no idea what's actually being tested. Only that you go "ohh me get big bar graph bigger better SYSMARK and Starcraft 2 are like every other piece of software created and compiled with the only compiler in the world!!!!!!"
Tyrant Kuma
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Starscythe
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Mobility
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CPUCPUCPUCPU
Opteron 8431 Opteron 8431 Opteron 8431 Opteron 8431 
MotherboardGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Super Micro h8qme-2+ Sapphire 4870 Samsung DDR2 ECC 667mhz western digital caviar blue 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
FX 8350 stock cooler FX 6300 stock cooler Gentoo Linux 2x Silverstone PSU 
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
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Silverstone Strider Gold Evolution 850W 80 PLUS... Antec 1200 Logitech G9x Asus Xonar D2X 
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XSPC RS360 Raystorm with custom radiator mounts 
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a4 5000 Radeon HD 8330 8GB G. Skill DDR3 1600 9-9-9 Gentoo Linux 
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Tyrant Kuma
(13 items)
 
Starscythe
(13 items)
 
Mobility
(6 items)
 
CPUCPUCPUCPU
Opteron 8431 Opteron 8431 Opteron 8431 Opteron 8431 
MotherboardGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Super Micro h8qme-2+ Sapphire 4870 Samsung DDR2 ECC 667mhz western digital caviar blue 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
FX 8350 stock cooler FX 6300 stock cooler Gentoo Linux 2x Silverstone PSU 
Case
Custom Fabbed Steel Case 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD FX 8350 gigabyte 990FXA-UD5 7970 Mushkin Enhanced Blackline 16GB 
OSOSMonitorKeyboard
Gentoo Linux Windows 7 x64 Yamakasi Catleap Q270 Corsair K90 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Silverstone Strider Gold Evolution 850W 80 PLUS... Antec 1200 Logitech G9x Asus Xonar D2X 
Other
XSPC RS360 Raystorm with custom radiator mounts 
CPUGraphicsRAMOS
a4 5000 Radeon HD 8330 8GB G. Skill DDR3 1600 9-9-9 Gentoo Linux 
OSOther
Windows 7 Lenovo Thinkpad x140e 
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