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[PCPer] Frame Rating Comparison - HD 7950 CrossFire vs GTX 660 Ti SLI (full review) - Page 25  

post #241 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biorganic View Post


Even in the above Fraps FPS graph, you are getting better fps with the Vsync on than off. Plus, with Vsync on there is no way to contest that you would get better performance with 2 cards than one, obvious right. So if you already own a 7970 it could still make sense to grab another. Really depends on if you want to go to the trouble of selling your card, then picking up some team green cards.

Also, and I don't completely understand this, when the Vsynced 7970s drop below 60 FPS, they are not dropping to 30. Which is odd to me. Anyone care to explain this? So you are not getting an astronomical drop in FPS when below 60 Hz.

reading the article now, kind of difficult to decipher, but here's a snipit
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
The ISU graph of stutter potential again indicates that the Vsync enabled option is introducing higher frame variances than we would like and it is doing it more dramatically and earlier than the GTX 680s in SLI.

It does appear that enabling Vsync will help alleviate the runts issue seen with AMD Radeon cards in CrossFire but at the cost of much more frame variance and stuttered animation on games that previously didn’t exhibit that problem.

EDIT: Looks like V-sync (assuming you're hitting 60+ frames) does help with crossfire! (for the most part
Quote:
How is this happening? How is enabling Vsync 'fixing' the runts and frame time issues of CrossFire? The secret lies in the inherent back pressure of vertical sync to pace the graphics card and AMD's CrossFire engines even against its own will. By forcing the GPUs to only render one frame every 16ms (at the maximum), Vsync is able to force the GPU to pace itself in a way that it would otherwise not. This doesn't happen in every game though as we saw in the Crysis results first, and there is a lot more testing that needs to be done with Vsync to make a firm decision.

Edited by lacrossewacker - 4/3/13 at 8:28am
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post #242 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by zGunBLADEz View Post

Vsync/frame cap helps with min fps and avg fps as well.. The higher the frame is the harder/lower the framedrops are which will mess your avg in the end...

So not only would get rid of stutter and tearing it will give you a better performance.. It will create input lag but thats what radeonpro is for..

Sorry but is there any way you could explain this a bit more? Why would you use a frame cap and Vsync at the same time? Sorry, but I thought if a Vsynced setup dropped below 60 FPS then it would go all the way down to 30 FPS.


@lacrossewacker, yes that is somewhat hard to decipher. Effectively, they are saying enabling VSync gets rid of runts but increases frame times. Wouldn't that negatively skew the observed FPS? Which is not the case in the figure posted above. Not trying to argue, really trying to learn a bit about this. Sorry redface.gif
 
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post #243 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biorganic View Post

Sorry but is there any way you could explain this a bit more? Why would you use a frame cap and Vsync at the same time? Sorry, but I thought if a Vsynced setup dropped below 60 FPS then it would go all the way down to 30 FPS.


@lacrossewacker, yes that is somewhat hard to decipher. Effectively, they are saying enabling VSync gets rid of runts but increases frame times. Wouldn't that negatively skew the observed FPS? Which is not the case in the figure posted above. Not trying to argue, really trying to learn a bit about this. Sorry redface.gif

I'm not arguing this at all lol I'm on the same side of the boat as you, trying to figure this out! Seems like it changes frame times because of the significant jumps between 60fps and 30fps. I dunno. it's weird. here's their conclusion if it helps! Seems like they still have lots to do which is good! glad they're actively trying to figure this out as well.
Quote:
However, enabling Vsync creates a whole host of other potential issues that gamers have to deal with. Even though the goal of removing visual tearing is met with the option turned on, you do add latency to the gameplay experience, as much as 60ms in some cases, from input to display. Putting back pressure on the GPU pipeline, for both NVIDIA and AMD, means that some frames are going to be running behind schedule or behind the input timing of the game itself. Many gamers won't want to deal with those kind of input problems and that is why many still play games with Vsync disabled. Turning on Vsync does help AMD's CrossFire performance but it isn't the final answer just yet.
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post #244 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biorganic View Post

Sorry but is there any way you could explain this a bit more? Why would you use a frame cap and Vsync at the same time? Sorry, but I thought if a Vsynced setup dropped below 60 FPS then it would go all the way down to 30 FPS.

Is hard to explain because we dont really know whats causing the issues..


I did this back in the first topic of pcper about frame latencys..
Now that we know (according to fcat) the only way to use fraps frame times graphs accurate on radeon card is with frame caps or vsync...

This are my findings

Normal Game Vsync Vs a 60 Frame Cap..
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5128/vsyncon60fcap.jpg

No Vsync vs 80 Frame Cap
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/5703/novsync80fpscap.jpg

No Vsync vs 120 Frame Cap
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/2456/novsync120fpscap.jpg

Vsync alone dont always work thats when you pair it with radeonpro fcap as well...

That was on retail crysis 3 where the big antenna is i was going around in circles and recording.. Theres a bunch of npcs and the big antenna is moving and a bunch of LoD scenes and shadows...
post #245 of 542

Quote:
Originally Posted by lacrossewacker View Post


I'm not arguing this at all lol I'm on the same side of the boat as you, trying to figure this out! Seems like it changes frame times because of the significant jumps between 60fps and 30fps. I dunno. it's weird. here's their conclusion if it helps! Seems like they still have lots to do which is good! glad they're actively trying to figure this out as well.

That's what's really weird about the VSynced Crysis three figure, When the FPS go below 60 they are not dropping to 30.

I am just going to assume that I don't understand Vsync or framecapping. Anyone wann point me to a good article. LOL
 
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post #246 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biorganic View Post



That's what's really weird about the VSynced Crysis three figure, When the FPS go below 60 they are not dropping to 30.

I am just going to assume that I don't understand Vsync or framecapping. Anyone wann point me to a good article. LOL


oh now i understand the question...
It is common sense.... Like a cpu when you are using it when is @ 100%
you try to do more work on it it will slow down when add more to it right?

In this case lets say you use vsync/fcap the card is never been used @ full capacity there is room to add more to it when needed...
So thats why you have better minimals and better avg when using vsync/fcap
Thats why i never let my card run wild because i prefer a steady performance for gameplay..
Plus i hate tearing with a passion... Thats why i dont notice this microstutters XD

Also point out that theres something wrong on the fcat readings once the vsync is off as you can notice with on and off..
Ryan didnt point out on the article either the difference between 20 frame avg animation vs a higher frame rate one...

also this

Edited by zGunBLADEz - 4/3/13 at 9:16am
post #247 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by zGunBLADEz View Post

Vsync/frame cap helps with min fps and avg fps as well.. The higher the frame is the harder/lower the framedrops are which will mess your avg in the end...

So not only would get rid of stutter and tearing it will give you a better performance.. It will create input lag but thats what radeonpro is for..

I don't use radeonpro myself, i just use normal Vsync 60Fps but also setting a Frame cap in games like BF3 where you can set the exact amount for me which i set at 59 most of the input lag was gone,
post #248 of 542
Food for thought

Frame Rating Dissected: Full Details on Capture-based Graphics Performance Testing'.
From the article (in part):
Quote:
NVIDIA's Involvement

NVIDIA was responsible for developing the color overlay that sits between the game and DirectX (in the same location of the pipeline as FRAPS essentially) as well as the software extractor that reads the captured video file to generate raw information about the lengths of those bars in an XLS file. Obviously, NVIDIA has a lot to gain from this particular testing methodology: its SLI technology looks much better than AMD’s CrossFire when viewed in this light, highlighting the advantages that SLI’s hardware frame metering bring to the table.


Where does the word runt come from?
Quote:
And, when you move beyond the issues that might affect a single-GPU setup and start considering the complexity of multiple graphics processors working cooperatively, two additional variables surface, affecting your experience: dropped frames and what Nvidia is introducing to us as runt frames.

In the same link above also explains what FCAT is:
Quote:
Nvidia calls this complete package FCAT, for Frame Capture Analysis Tool. FCAT's resulting performance data, modified to remove dropped and runt frames from the reporting going on today, should be more in-line with what gamers see.

Interesting comments from H
Quote:
Again this comes down to interpretation of the data and what is being compared in any review. If CrossFire was no better than a comparable single GPU card, then real world gaming testing of highest attainable settings and resolutions would expose this easily. Again, it is why we were first in the industry to start this tremendously resource intensive testing years ago.

We have been talking to NVIDIA about frametime testing and collection for a long time now and there is good information back from inside the NVIDIA organization that HardOCP GPU reviews was the catalyst for this coming about. We had the opportunity to help develop the program tools with NVIDIA but chose not to. PCPer has put an incredible about of time and money into this program that we were simply not comfortable with spending. PCPer has done a great deal of needed work on this with NVIDIA, which is commendable, but I am not sure data collection on this front will prove to be the end all be all in GPU reviews. It all still comes down to evaluating the end user gaming experience and how well the hardware allows you to achieve you wants and needs on this front. Frame time data collection will never be something that any users can use at home easily so it will never be more than a review data point. Focus on the user experience will still have the most impact on video card sales making sure the end user gets what he wants and needs.

Edited by EastCoast - 4/3/13 at 9:13am
post #249 of 542
Great post EastCoast +rep thumb.gif

Quote:
We have been talking to NVIDIA about frametime testing and collection for a long time now and there is good information back from inside the NVIDIA organization that HardOCP GPU reviews was the catalyst for this coming about. We had the opportunity to help develop the program tools with NVIDIA but chose not to. PCPer has put an incredible about of time and money into this program that we were simply not comfortable with spending. PCPer has done a great deal of needed work on this with NVIDIA, which is commendable, but I am not sure data collection on this front will prove to be the end all be all in GPU reviews.


So I was right, Nvidia helped to pay for this biggrin.gif ( @looniam rolleyes.gif )

Quote:
It all still comes down to evaluating the end user gaming experience and how well the hardware allows you to achieve you wants and needs on this front. Frame time data collection will never be something that any users can use at home easily so it will never be more than a review data point. Focus on the user experience will still have the most impact on video card sales making sure the end user gets what he wants and needs.

It says we can't base all our conclusions on these frame tests. User experience has a huge part in this.


Edited by KaRLiToS - 4/3/13 at 9:35am
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post #250 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaRLiToS View Post

Great post EastCoast +rep
So I was right, Nvidia helped to pay for this biggrin.gif

I wouldn't read into that too much, seeing as they're open sourcing it and foul play suspicions will be put to bed quite quickly.

It's only natural that a company plays to their strengths too. Nvidia developed a tool to show their hardware metering, AMD play the same game, for example: Tomb Raider TressFX 'using the power of GCNs compute' knowing the 6xx is hobbled there smile.gif
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