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[PCPer] Frame Rating Comparison - HD 7950 CrossFire vs GTX 660 Ti SLI (full review) - Page 31  

post #301 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biorganic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Not ghosting - the animations would jump, or "stutter" as you went from frame 3 to frame 5 (because frame 4 was a runt). That's what seems to be happening, if you look at some of the runt screenshots.

So then the elimination of runt frames could decrease "FPS" but increase smoothness/overall performance.

Example: 50 FPS but every 6th frame is a runt. So you get choppiness. Versus 40 FPS with 0 runt frames, so it is smooth, but technically lower FPS. I want to see their solution to this

I think that is what the end results will be once runt frames are removed.
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post #302 of 542
I'd say it depends on the cause, but it could end up being performance-neutral. So instead of 25ms-10ms-25ms, you get 20ms-20ms-20ms. Same average performance, but smoother. I'd say that's likely if it is a simple timing issue, but less likely if it is a workload balance issue.

The fact that the earlier fixes they've implemented (1080p Skyrim) didn't significantly impact performance should give some hope that they can do it without killing performance. Not sure what it means that it gets worse when you go to higher resolutions. That sounds like a workload issue.
Edited by Forceman - 4/3/13 at 12:49pm
post #303 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

I'd say it depends on the cause, but it could end up being performance-neutral. So instead of 25ms-10ms-25ms, you get 20ms-20ms-20ms. Same average performance, but smoother. I'd say that's likely if it is a simple timing issue, but less likely if it is a workload balance issue.

The fact that the earlier fixes they've implemented didn't significantly impact performance should give some hope that they can do it without killing performance.

Actually they didint increase the fps with the problem on pipeline with bordelands 2?Like 10%? Such a small frames probably hurts the performance too.
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post #304 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biorganic View Post

So then the elimination of runt frames could decrease "FPS" but increase smoothness/overall performance.

Example: 50 FPS but every 6th frame is a runt. So you get choppiness. Versus 40 FPS with 0 runt frames, so it is smooth, but technically lower FPS. I want to see their solution to this

The problem with that theory would be @ 20 frame animation the animations would be noticeable to the user...
So you are monitoring frames and you see is running avg 60 then you see a 20animation poping out at 60 the hell you dont going to notice that..
post #305 of 542
My biggest question in all this is they use these super high end systems and then use a 60hz monitor. I wonder how different these results would look with a 120hz refresh rate when they do v sync tests.
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post #306 of 542
But it isn't 20 FPS animation. It's a 6o FPS animation that you see at 40 FPS. Probably still noticeable, but at some point the brain just glosses over those differences - movies are at 24FPS but no one complains about jerky animations (and I know about motion blur, so don't bring that up - I'm trying to make a point here). So if the scene goes step-step-doublestep-step-step, how noticeable is that? I don't know, but my guess is that you don't notice it directly but you do notice something "off" about the image. Which kind of fits the desctiption of SLI being "smoother".
post #307 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

But it isn't 20 FPS animation. It's a 6o FPS animation that you see at 40 FPS. Probably still noticeable, but at some point the brain just glosses over those differences - movies are at 24FPS but no one complains about jerky animations (and I know about motion blur, so don't bring that up - I'm trying to make a point here). So if the scene goes step-step-doublestep-step-step, how noticeable is that? I don't know, but my guess is that you don't notice it directly but you do notice something "off" about the image. Which kind of fits the desctiption of SLI being "smoother".

Im talking about pcper as my 2x7970 do 60avg @ 1080P
post #308 of 542
I think I would rather have 40 FPS smooth than 60 FPS CH_O//PP_Y.
 
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post #309 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

So when Afterburner and PrecisionX include the overlay tool (which EVGA has already said they are doing) will everyone be happy to accept the results then? What about when AMD releases a driver that reduces or eliminates the runt frame issue? This is the same debate from the original TR article, that was widely derided as "biased" or paid for by Nvidia - now another tool is released that shows the same thing, and we're still claiming bias? TR found many of the same issues as PCPer did using FCAT (minus the inflammatory conclusions), when Anandtech finishes their review and finds the same thing will that finally be enough? How many times/tools have to show the same thing before it becomes accepted?

There's an issue with Crossfire's management of frame times - I don't really see how that's even up for debate at this point. The impact of that is as yet unknown (because, how do you quantify the "user experience"?), but the people claiming this is all a scam by Nvidia need to grow up. Of course they want this news to come out - they spent time and money to reduce these issues with SLI and they rightly want some exposure for that because it makes their cards look better, which is what the market is all about. AMD has better compute and they developed a new graphical technique (TressFX) to take advantage of that and to show their product in the best possible light (same with Dirt 3) - does that make AMD evil as well?

Some of us have no issue with the crossfire, been using it since 4890 up to now...my gameplay is always good...sure sometimes, it's a pain to get it tweak especially with these monthly betas but I have gotten so better at it that in the end i don't see nor feel any stuttering im my gameplay as a expert user....TressFX can be use by nvidia also is it not?
Edited by Raptorpowa - 4/3/13 at 1:08pm
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post #310 of 542
I'm sure plenty of people don't see an issue with Crossfire, just like plenty of people don't have an issue with screen tearing, or with input lag. Different people are sensitive to different thing, so I think it's normal that microstutter (or just stutter) is more noticeable to some than to others. Personally I have huge issues with screen tearing and stutter (which happens even on single cards, so it's not like that is a Crossfire exclusive - there are also many causes), but I don't really care too much about input lag in most games. But I don't think that's a reason not to investigate these things, or to reject the data out of hand.

As for TressFX, my point was that AMD developing TressFX doesn't make AMD "bad" just because it presents their cards in a better light, any more than Nvidia developing FCAT makes Nvidia "bad" because it presents their cards in a better light. If the data is card neutral (which still needs to be shown) then who cares who developed it. Take the data and do some intelligent analysis of what it means and what impact it has on gameplay, then either use it or don't - but sticking heads in sand just because it was "developed by Nvidia" isn't helping anything.
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