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[PCPer] Frame Rating Comparison - HD 7950 CrossFire vs GTX 660 Ti SLI (full review) - Page 33  

post #321 of 542
I don't really care about conspiracy theories or anything like that. What bothers me (and probably other AMD users) is the fact that PCPer, in this article, is basically telling us that we CF users are idiots. Believe me, if my CF 7970 had been performing at a level of 20-25 FPS for the past year I would not be sitting here defending it. I may not be very susceptible to microstutter but I can absolutely tell the difference between 100 FPS and 25 FPS and to have my intelligence insulted by saying that I have been only experiencing 25 FPS for the past year is mildly aggravating, not to mention absurd. There is obviously a frame time issue with AMD drivers and they have acknowledged that (and are working on a fix) but this story is blown way out of proportion IMO.

I've been saying all along (since the original TR story) that this issue may be obvious on a graph but as an actual impediment to user experience it is not a big deal. Of course Nvidia and their legion of fanboys has jumped all over it and made it seem as though CF is simply unplayable but as someone who has owned said setup for over a year I find that preposterous. Some people who are sensitive to microstutter may have issues with AMD's CF but the vast majority of us have been enjoying these cards for over a year and its simply outrageous that PCPer is now coming along and trying to claim that we've all been duped by AMD and that we really are only getting 25 FPS in CF. Check my sig and you'll see that I've extensively tested CF against SLI for the past month (7970 vs Titan) and after having run both setups back to back I noticed no massive improvement in smoothness in either setup over the other (except in Crysis 3 and FC3 where the 7970's simply lack the horse power to maintain high enough minimum frame rates).

I'm glad that AMD is working to fix whatever issues are causing the frame time irregularities but I put absolutely no credence in this PCPer story...
post #322 of 542
No clue how you guys can spot micro stutters at 60+ FPS.... Think some claims are a bit exaggerated.


Until there is a scientific study done where groups of people from both AMD an Nvidia camps are forced to play on both XF and SLi and determine which is which color me unimpressed by a 50% reduction speed for these games.
post #323 of 542
When I run fraps in FC3 and v-sync, it says my 7950 crossfire is keeping around 60fps with the max settings. However it looks and feel like 15-20fps with huge lag and stutter, so its completely unplayable. Hitman never seemed to get all that much extra performance from CF, I expected close to 60fps always. And in some places it lags and stutters bad.

I've complained many times here before, in all the games I've played, old and new, a single 7950 worked great, but then after crossfire FC3 and hitman need work. Sleeping dogs seems to stutter a bit, but that could be just because of the big open world space on highest settings @1080p. And AMD helped on those games.

COD5, BF3, BFBC2, StarCraft2, LA noire, F1 2011, Dirt3, Fallout3, all work great. Skyrim had some issues with frames skipping, until I used radeonpro to lock framerate at monitors refreshrate, and it nows great now.

And my newest games are on SSD with 20-25% free space, and I've used the last 3 AMD drivers. Eveything else was a new win7 install back in November. When I finish a couple of more games I'm doing a new install just in the hope it works better.
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post #324 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biorganic View Post

So then the elimination of runt frames could decrease "FPS" but increase smoothness/overall performance.

Example: 50 FPS but every 6th frame is a runt. So you get choppiness. Versus 40 FPS with 0 runt frames, so it is smooth, but technically lower FPS. I want to see their solution to this

It would initially seem so, but ask anyone who played skyrim before beta 13.1 and after beta 13.1 and you will hear (and see in tr review) that fps stayed exactly the same yet runt frames were greatly reduced.

In anandtech's article with amd, they go over this and even say that a stupid bug in their boarderlands coding, when fixed, not only eliminated a most stutter, but improved fps by 11%.

It is merely an optimization problem. I don't think they even realized the power their gnc architecture could push and, being a new tech, the cost of not having the driver side completely under wraps.
     
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intel 3960x @4.7 ghz asrock extreme9 x79 3x msi 7970 lightnings g.skill ripjawx 1600 cl8 
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ssd: kingston hyperx 120gb hdd: seagate barracu... bd-rwh water for cpu benq 2420t 24" 120hz 
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ssd: kingston hyperx 120gb hdd: seagate barracu... bd-rwh water for cpu benq 2420t 24" 120hz 
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mountain mods extended asension 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3960x Asrock Extreme9 2x Sapphire 6950 unlocked G.skill CL8 12800 x4 (4gb) 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Kingston hyperx  Seagate barracuda xt 7200/ sata3/ 64 mb cache LiteOn BD-R x12 Watercooling 
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win 7 x64 asus 23" 1080p 1000W Thermaltake toughpower HAX 932 Advanced (modified for Radiators on ins... 
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post #325 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaltenbrunner View Post

When I run fraps in FC3 and v-sync, it says my 7950 crossfire is keeping around 60fps with the max settings. However it looks and feel like 15-20fps with huge lag and stutter, so its completely unplayable. Hitman never seemed to get all that much extra performance from CF, I expected close to 60fps always. And in some places it lags and stutters bad.

I've complained many times here before, in all the games I've played, old and new, a single 7950 worked great, but then after crossfire FC3 and hitman need work. Sleeping dogs seems to stutter a bit, but that could be just because of the big open world space on highest settings @1080p. And AMD helped on those games.

COD5, BF3, BFBC2, StarCraft2, LA noire, F1 2011, Dirt3, Fallout3, all work great. Skyrim had some issues with frames skipping, until I used radeonpro to lock framerate at monitors refreshrate, and it nows great now.

And my newest games are on SSD with 20-25% free space, and I've used the last 3 AMD drivers. Eveything else was a new win7 install back in November. When I finish a couple of more games I'm doing a new install just in the hope it works better.

Fc3 and hitman are 2 titles that are notoriously bad on amd hardware, especially cfx.

To me, it is very important to look at what games you play to decide what camp you want to jump into.
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
intel 3960x @4.7 ghz asrock extreme9 x79 3x msi 7970 lightnings g.skill ripjawx 1600 cl8 
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ssd: kingston hyperx 120gb hdd: seagate barracu... bd-rwh water for cpu benq 2420t 24" 120hz 
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mountain mods extended asension 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3960x Asrock Extreme9 2x Sapphire 6950 unlocked G.skill CL8 12800 x4 (4gb) 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Kingston hyperx  Seagate barracuda xt 7200/ sata3/ 64 mb cache LiteOn BD-R x12 Watercooling 
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win 7 x64 asus 23" 1080p 1000W Thermaltake toughpower HAX 932 Advanced (modified for Radiators on ins... 
MouseAudio
Razer Deathhadder 3.5g sennheiser PC 330, Game blaster with Extreme9 
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intel 3960x @4.7 ghz asrock extreme9 x79 3x msi 7970 lightnings g.skill ripjawx 1600 cl8 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingMonitor
ssd: kingston hyperx 120gb hdd: seagate barracu... bd-rwh water for cpu benq 2420t 24" 120hz 
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mountain mods extended asension 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3960x Asrock Extreme9 2x Sapphire 6950 unlocked G.skill CL8 12800 x4 (4gb) 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Kingston hyperx  Seagate barracuda xt 7200/ sata3/ 64 mb cache LiteOn BD-R x12 Watercooling 
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win 7 x64 asus 23" 1080p 1000W Thermaltake toughpower HAX 932 Advanced (modified for Radiators on ins... 
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post #326 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomama22 View Post

Fc3 and hitman are 2 titles that are notoriously bad on amd hardware, especially cfx.

To me, it is very important to look at what games you play to decide what camp you want to jump into.

Hitman had no stutter AT LL on my rig with QuadFire 7970s and 8044x1440 resolution (higher the 4K)

4k resol: 8,321,280 pixels
3x1440p: 11,583,360 pixels
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post #327 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

Too bad it didn't work out as planned. After NVIDIA got the final code, put out proper drivers for it, and the game was properly patched, NVIDIA cards regained the lead, LOL.







This is what AMD would have you believe. rolleyes.gif


Erm, a GTX 670 costs about $100 more than a HD7950...Of course you'll get higher performance if you spend more, compare it to the competition (The 660Ti) that it actually competes with on price because most consumers would.
And what about OCed results? This entire generation has had nVidia being much closer/better than AMD at stock than at OCed speeds due to the nature of nVidias GPU boost vs AMDs tacked on feature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biorganic View Post

However, some of this data should be taken with a grain of salt, especially given Nvidias involvement and lack of complete transparency.

This. I love how it gets changed to "You're a fanboy for making this into a conspiracy!"
Yes, there are issues..But we still need more information to work out how bad those issues actually are, because as far as I can tell a minority of people would actually notice it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

I don't really care about conspiracy theories or anything like that. What bothers me (and probably other AMD users) is the fact that PCPer, in this article, is basically telling us that we CF users are idiots. Believe me, if my CF 7970 had been performing at a level of 20-25 FPS for the past year I would not be sitting here defending it. I may not be very susceptible to microstutter but I can absolutely tell the difference between 100 FPS and 25 FPS and to have my intelligence insulted by saying that I have been only experiencing 25 FPS for the past year is mildly aggravating, not to mention absurd. There is obviously a frame time issue with AMD drivers and they have acknowledged that (and are working on a fix) but this story is blown way out of proportion IMO.

I've been saying all along (since the original TR story) that this issue may be obvious on a graph but as an actual impediment to user experience it is not a big deal. Of course Nvidia and their legion of fanboys has jumped all over it and made it seem as though CF is simply unplayable but as someone who has owned said setup for over a year I find that preposterous. Some people who are sensitive to microstutter may have issues with AMD's CF but the vast majority of us have been enjoying these cards for over a year and its simply outrageous that PCPer is now coming along and trying to claim that we've all been duped by AMD and that we really are only getting 25 FPS in CF. Check my sig and you'll see that I've extensively tested CF against SLI for the past month (7970 vs Titan) and after having run both setups back to back I noticed no massive improvement in smoothness in either setup over the other (except in Crysis 3 and FC3 where the 7970's simply lack the horse power to maintain high enough minimum frame rates).

I'm glad that AMD is working to fix whatever issues are causing the frame time irregularities but I put absolutely no credence in this PCPer story...

This is why I think it varies from rig to rig...Makes sense, every bug I've ever gotten has too...I had a really bad bug with at least 3 nVidia cards where if I seeked in a video too much the player and driver would crash and my card would stick to 2D clocks until I rebooted...Fixed it when I got a new motherboard out of all things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomama22 View Post

To me, it is very important to look at what games you play to decide what camp you want to jump into.

It always has, but people seem to have forgotten that...It's like back in the day of the K6-2 vs Pentium II, you'd either pick Pentium II (Higher FP performance in general) or the K6-2 (If your games used 3DNow! and were able to run well on the K6, which iirc was generally a tad faster in integer stuff)
post #328 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomama22 View Post

Fc3 and hitman are 2 titles that are notoriously bad on amd hardware, especially cfx.

To me, it is very important to look at what games you play to decide what camp you want to jump into.

Personally I got the games the day they came out with AMD never settle games coupon, still have the 2nd, no one wants to buy it
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post #329 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

This entire discussion is about FCAT, which is a possible new tool to replace/supplement FRAPS. The results everyone is (or should be discussing) is the FCAT results from PCPer and TR, and possibly how they compare to FRAPS results (also a big issue).

That's why I was confused about your comment - it sounds like you are saying we should be discussing exactly what we are discussing. But I may just be misunderstanding you.

How this can replace fraps for the end user?

You guys are missing the part that in the right situation fraps and fcats graphs are identical?
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post #330 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaRLiToS View Post

Hitman had no stutter AT LL on my rig with QuadFire 7970s and 8044x1440 resolution (higher the 4K)

4k resol: 8,321,280 pixels
3x1440p: 11,583,360 pixels

I didn't have no problems with hitman at all. FC3 it just another story. It just one of the worst games I have try it on my pc.

I can play it under right circumstances and with 1card only. Cannot bear the stuttering on this one is just horrible.
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