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[PCPer] Frame Rating Comparison - HD 7950 CrossFire vs GTX 660 Ti SLI (full review) - Page 36  

post #351 of 542
@Karlitos, I'm going to comment before reading that thread. wink.gif

As I pointed out earlier, AMD does the exact same thing. thumb.gif
http://www.overclock.net/t/1377275/pcper-frame-rating-comparison-hd-7950-crossfire-vs-gtx-660-ti-sli-full-review/250_50#post_19669126

AMD fans on this site were notorious for claiming that the superior compute performance of GCN made all the difference for TressFX to run smoothly.

Check out the AMD hype machine hard at work. wink.gif
http://blogs.amd.com/play/tressfx/

For a while, I actually believed that my card didn't have the compute necessary to play Tomb Raider with TressFX ON. By the time all the drivers and patches came out, I had already beat the game. I played it on hard the first time around with TressFX OFF, and lower settings, and haven't played it again.

I'm sure it was a mere coincidence that NVIDIA didn't get the final code for the game, until the weekend before it was released. wink.gif

Point is, both companies will do whatever they can to gain an edge over the other, ever since they were found to be price fixing.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-amd-ati-graphics,6311.html

You like to point out what NVIDIA does, and I'm pointing what AMD does, neither company is innocent.
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post #352 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by zGunBLADEz View Post

@karlitos this is nvidia land just look at your chart lol..

62% vs 38% on the red side..

Not only nvidia pr marketing is very good they also known to use dirty tricks before...
Main reason i dont use their products...

Since the FX fiasco, LONG LONG LONG time ago

The Valley Thread is a very unbiased "review".

But honestly, nothing will stop me from buying Nvidia or AMD, even their past mistakes and/or poor drivers.

What I find sad is those crap reviews paid by Nvidia because Nvidia has more money and people will believe all this exagerations.

You see that marketing crap everywhere from Nvidia, its sad for the market and its killing it. Nobody wants to see AMD go. They have awsome products and their driver team is getting so good by now. But yet people will deny it and prefer looking at those crappy reviews.

Quote:
We have been talking to NVIDIA about frametime testing and collection for a long time now and there is good information back from inside the NVIDIA organization that HardOCP GPU reviews was the catalyst for this coming about. We had the opportunity to help develop the program tools with NVIDIA but chose not to. PCPer has put an incredible about of time and money into this program that we were simply not comfortable with spending. PCPer has done a great deal of needed work on this with NVIDIA, which is commendable, but I am not sure data collection on this front will prove to be the end all be all in GPU reviews.

Its written black on white in that quote that PCPer had some money from Nvidia. I don't think that the "Nvidia help" meant pandas dancing in pyjamas while they were working. It was probably Help = Money.
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post #353 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaRLiToS View Post

The Valley Thread is a very unbiased "review".

But honestly, nothing will stop me from buying Nvidia or AMD, even their past mistakes and/or poor drivers.

What I find sad is those crap reviews paid by Nvidia because Nvidia has more money and people will believe all this exagerations.

You see that marketing crap everywhere from Nvidia, its sad for the market and its killing it. Nobody wants to see AMD go. They have awsome products and their driver team is getting so good by now. But yet people will deny it and prefer looking at those crappy reviews.

They will regret it if amd goes out of business lol
This kids riding 1xgpus and med tier gpus and such...

You can see it right now with nvidia titan prices just for the heck of it..
post #354 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

I don't really care about conspiracy theories or anything like that. What bothers me (and probably other AMD users) is the fact that PCPer, in this article, is basically telling us that we CF users are idiots. Believe me, if my CF 7970 had been performing at a level of 20-25 FPS for the past year I would not be sitting here defending it. I may not be very susceptible to microstutter but I can absolutely tell the difference between 100 FPS and 25 FPS and to have my intelligence insulted by saying that I have been only experiencing 25 FPS for the past year is mildly aggravating, not to mention absurd. There is obviously a frame time issue with AMD drivers and they have acknowledged that (and are working on a fix) but this story is blown way out of proportion IMO.

I've been saying all along (since the original TR story) that this issue may be obvious on a graph but as an actual impediment to user experience it is not a big deal. Of course Nvidia and their legion of fanboys has jumped all over it and made it seem as though CF is simply unplayable but as someone who has owned said setup for over a year I find that preposterous. Some people who are sensitive to microstutter may have issues with AMD's CF but the vast majority of us have been enjoying these cards for over a year and its simply outrageous that PCPer is now coming along and trying to claim that we've all been duped by AMD and that we really are only getting 25 FPS in CF. Check my sig and you'll see that I've extensively tested CF against SLI for the past month (7970 vs Titan) and after having run both setups back to back I noticed no massive improvement in smoothness in either setup over the other (except in Crysis 3 and FC3 where the 7970's simply lack the horse power to maintain high enough minimum frame rates).

I'm glad that AMD is working to fix whatever issues are causing the frame time irregularities but I put absolutely no credence in this PCPer story...

yup, i agree. even if CF is flawed it is obviously better than a single setup. even if it has problems with scaling or latency and/or stuttering it COULDN'T"T WORSE THAN A SINGLE SETUP performance wise.
i just have a minor complaint (which is essentially nitpicking) with your comment "...the vast majority of us have been enjoying these cards for over a year..." which can't be completely 100% true. while some are mosre sensitive to stuttering and/or latency than others you can't just generalize most and say that they are enjoying the 79x0 CF (though it looks like the most on OCN do biggrin.gif )


i find that FC3 looks like a nightmare in the game level itself. i remember seeing not few complaints on stuttering with both sides and npt that i want to knock on Ubisoft Montreal but some of it looks like their fault (or maybe it is Ubisoft's fault for rushing which is also plausible)




and for frame ratings with FRAPS and general knowledge, i think that the Anand article is almost a must.

but briefly, here is my summary: (on FRAPS) Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


essentially, FRAPS just measures the call for a frame (present) before most of the whole process which is problematic. important to note that BOTH Nvidia and AMD do not like FRAPS because of the above reason.
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post #355 of 542
I'm waiting to hear the spin now that Guru3D has come up with broadly similar results (except their testing doesn't include runt frame analysis) using their own overlay. So Guru3D overlay and open source analysis tools - are they bought and paid for by Nvidia?
Quote:
FACT or FCAT - Can We Trust FCAT?
Considering FCAT primarily is an open project we feel it is a reliable benchmarking methodology. The fact that the ideas and initial software needed originates from NVIDIA doesn't mean it is a subjective methodology. Contrary, this can become one of the best benchmark methods we have ever tried, it is very time consuming though. From the get-go NVIDIA has been open and transparent about everything related to this testing method. Once the tagged frames arrive at the FCAT machine honestly, it can't see what graphics card is rendering the game, as such it creates an equal playing field for any brand or type of card you connect to it.

The one piece of software that could be tainted as such would always be on the game machine side, and that's the software overlay - hence here at Guru3D we started implementing our own coded FCAT overlay version into RTSS, the overlay statistics software for MSI AfterBurner and Precision to immediately kill of that suspicion. Honestly, NVIDIA would shoot itself in the foot to mess with stuff to gain results in their favor, as the media will detect it, that I guarantee you. But we'd love to hear about it from you guys.

Of course NVIDIA had alternative motives to start a discussion about FCAT, it exposes the things we see with AMD's AFR sync multi-GPU solutions versus what need to be more consant frame time. If we reverse that, if NVIDIA would have had issues at hand, they'd never introduced this methodology towards the public. But, that doesn't mean the FCAT methodology is flawed. Now I took Hitman as a bit of a showcase in this article, as it has extreme (way more then other games) issues with showing latency spikes that can not be seen on the monitor. Realistically FCAT didn't show them on AMD single GPU solutions, so that works out pretty well and benificial for AMD don't you think ? So yeah, I believe it is one of the best tools we have had at hand in a long time. But I'm very curious what you guys think about FCAT and will follow and love to listen to you guys in our forums.
post #356 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by zGunBLADEz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaRLiToS View Post

The Valley Thread is a very unbiased "review".

But honestly, nothing will stop me from buying Nvidia or AMD, even their past mistakes and/or poor drivers.

What I find sad is those crap reviews paid by Nvidia because Nvidia has more money and people will believe all this exagerations.

You see that marketing crap everywhere from Nvidia, its sad for the market and its killing it. Nobody wants to see AMD go. They have awsome products and their driver team is getting so good by now. But yet people will deny it and prefer looking at those crappy reviews.

They will regret it if amd goes out of business lol
This kids riding 1xgpus and med tier gpus and such...

You can see it right now with nvidia titan prices just for the heck of it..

I don't think anyone in their right mind wants AMD to fail. All the more reason these results are a GOOD thing. Even if they are lying, it will get AMD off their a$$ to address their driver issues, that they have already said needs fixing. I want the AMD back that handed Intel it a$$ with the release of the Athlon64.
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post #357 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

l

You like to point out what NVIDIA does, and I'm pointing what AMD does, neither company is innocent.

The last thing you posted is from 2008 tongue.gif

And the TressFX page by AMD don't have nothing that compare them to Nvidia.


By the way, I am not afraid of pointing out AMD bad things, oh crap no. But if you don't understand my points here and prefer tagging me as an AMD fanboy, its your problem.

You should look more often in AMD drivers section, I was the first one to yell and whine when I wanted better drivers. I was the one making bug reports. I always complained at Thracks (AMD Rep) when I was mad at something.

But one thing I can say for sure, I had no problem with my favorite games with AMD lately ... I have been an intensive game player since Quake 1 and I spot right away stutters. There was absolutely no stutters in my games. (Unless you point Far Cry 3 that is pure crap)
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post #358 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

I'm waiting to hear the spin now that Guru3D has come up with broadly similar results (except their testing doesn't include runt frame analysis) using their own overlay. So Guru3D overlay and open source analysis tools - are they bought and paid for by Nvidia?

I like more guru3d on this than pcper...

They leave questions open as well as explaining everything better...

Also..
Quote:
And there it is, 100 frames at the same measuring point. Now remember, FCAT displays in a chart what you see on screen, keep that in mind.

Now AMD doesn't like to share information about this behaviour, except when your website name starts with an A. We undertand they are working on this, have confirmed the findings and expect in the June/July time-frame to come up with some sort of sync solution for what you are seeing there. But yeah, this basically is why NVIDIA is pretty keen about FCAT. They did their homework and tackled that challenge. Now this is all stuff for discussion as let me throw one back at ya, what if we enable VSYNC ? Correct. The problem would be near gone. Anyway .. enough brain teasing for today.

This is more neutral than pcper oh hey 7970 cfx users your second card is utterly worthless XD
You can see in their podcast how cynical they were laughing at amd on the announcement of 7990

Thats how it should be done long time ago pcper learn learn learn...

props for guru3d
Edited by zGunBLADEz - 4/4/13 at 2:38pm
post #359 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaRLiToS View Post



By the way, I am not afraid of pointing out AMD bad things, oh crap no. But if you don't understand my points here and prefer tagging me as an AMD fanboy, its your problem.

You should look more often in AMD drivers section, I was the first one to yell and whine when I wanted better drivers. I was the one making bug reports. I always complained at Thracks (AMD Rep) when I was mad at something.

And i was right behind you when you get bashed..
post #360 of 542
Thread Starter 
don't know if anyone cares to hear some feedback from PCper - about forum comments ~16:00 and then goes on to what's next until ~30:00.

PC Perspective Podcast 245 - 04/04/13

Edited by looniam - 4/4/13 at 2:29pm
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