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post #441 of 542
In sleeping dogs you can't compare game smoothness when one set of cards is producing IQ the way the developer intended while the other set of cards is missing certain IQ renderings. This invalidates the test. If anyone want to still claim that the setup with a lower IQ is smooth you do so based on the fact that it's not rendering as much on screen as the other set of cards.

Which is really funny because it appears that some may indeed still see it that way.
Edited by EastCoast - 4/6/13 at 9:04am
post #442 of 542
ONCE MORE AGAIN....
Review is up.
Frame Rating: GTX 660 vs HD 7870, plus HD 7790, HD 7850, GTX 650 Ti BOOST

Test System Setup
CPU Intel Core i7-3960X Sandy Bridge-E
Motherboard ASUS P9X79 Deluxe
Memory Corsair Dominator DDR3-1600 16GB
Hard Drive OCZ Agility 4 256GB SSD
Sound Card On-board
Graphics Card NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2GB
AMD Radeon HD 7870 2GB
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 Ti 1GB
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 Ti BOOST 2GB
AMD Radeon HD 7850 2GB
AMD Radeon HD 7790 1GB
Graphics Drivers AMD: 13.2 beta 7
NVIDIA: 314.07 beta
Power Supply Corsair AX1200i
Operating System Windows 8 Pro x64
Quote:
Final Thoughts

Don't get the wrong impression, this is in no way the end of our Frame Rating stories and I am only finalizing our first complete set of data today. The steps to get here have been difficult but now you have essentially all of the data and numbers that I have been building over the last year, with a lot of troubleshooting and analysis along the way.

I think the takeaway from the current state of Frame Rating is that while AMD's single GPU graphics cards offer fantastic performance per dollar, there is a fundamental problem with the CrossFire and CrossFire + Eyefinity technology that needs to be addressed by AMD. Even though there is still much research to be done on the subject of the full effect of the results and the discrepancies we are seeing in our CrossFire results, the fact is that something is fundamentally different between CrossFire and SLI, and in my hands on time with graphics cards over many years and over the last 18 months with this capture capability, NVIDIA is doing multi-GPU better.

AMD has promised to fix this, and we are going to hold them to it. We differ on how dramatic an impact runt frames and dropped frames have on the user experience, but they are not denying that there is an issue many gamers are seeing. That's the good news. The bad news is that it may take until well into the summer to see something from AMD that will start to address the concerns we have. But better late than never and we'll continue to push forward.

Our next step is to look at the many user-submitted solutions for this AMD issue including the full effects of enabling Vsync, applications like RadeonPro and how we can measure changes in input latency because of frame meter.

It's going to be a busy summer...
post #443 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post

In sleeping dogs you can't compare game smoothness when one set of cards is producing IQ the way the developer intended while the other set of cards is missing certain IQ renderings. This invalidates the test. If anyone want to still claim that the setup with a lower IQ is smooth you do so based on the fact that it's not rendering as much on screen as the other set of cards.

Which is really funny because it appears that some may indeed still see it that way.

That's fine. Throw out Sleeping Dogs. Now explain to us why all the other games exhibit the same behaviour with no lighting differences.
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post #444 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonehxc View Post

I don't get why so many people is so hell bent on destroying AMD reputation based on their current purchase. You really have to be THE BEST to remain in the bussiness? I guess, aside from people that had problems(like you, mcg75, I would be biased if I had a CF with issues and then I got and amazing Titan), there's just the usual no-personality bunch that has to go with the flow without thinking for themselves, cause it's cool to say, think and do what the majority does biggrin.gif

Sorry but having a different opinion on something is not the same as having bias. For instance, you say there are people hell bent on destroying AMD. Well, in my opinion, I see 10x more mindless bashing of Nvidia and Intel than I do AMD here on OCN. Doesn't mean either of us is biased.

I got a Titan because I wanted one. Same way I got a 7970 when I wanted one. I never had a Xfire setup btw.

Had AMD released a Titan type product, I'd have bought it. It really is that simple. Build something I like and I will buy it, brand does not matter.

But when I see someone making a comment that I don't agree with, I'm going to comment as well. You guys talk about the lighting issue and yes, there are lighting differences. But when the actual .mp4 video is studied from the indoor scene where lighting is the same on both cards, I see no image sharpness difference between them.

If the lighting issue was consistent across all the games, I would concede and re-evaluate. But it's one game that we're seeing the difference on and it's a AMD funded game to boot. Given the history from BOTH camps with these tricks, maybe there just might be something there.
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post #445 of 542
So basically, crossfire sucks in any purely GPU limited situation. I don't buy the "extra latency" excuse we've heard from AMD, because metering frames shouldn't introduce any extra latency. Assuming AFR, if each GPU takes 30ms to render 1 frame, you should start the second frame rendering when the first one is half done. this means your render latency stays at 30ms, but the game engine is able to send one frame every 15ms instead of 2 frames every 30ms. Obviously this is simplified, because not every frame takes 30ms to render, so you do some averaging over the past few frames to predict how long the next one will take.

If this is the case(GPUs synchronize when game is GPU limited), they could fix this with a quick and dirty patch that dynamically changes framerate cap to target a GPU utilization of 90~95% when using crossfire w/o vsync. That would increase the perceived framerate in the current worst case scenarios by about 80%, and serve as a workable stopgap until they can figure out all the tricks and pitfalls to get the frame interval consistency without sacrificing that 5-10% in average framerate.
Edited by TranquilTempest - 4/6/13 at 10:20am
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post #446 of 542
All the quotes are from his final thought and conclusion.
Quote:
At single monitor resolutions, tested here as 1920x1080 and 2560x1440, the Radeon HD 7870 CrossFire configuration showed the same problems we saw in our initial article once again in titles like Battlefield 3, Crysis 3 and Sleeping Dogs. But as we saw in our previous piece problems are creeping up in DiRT 3 and Far Cry 3, game that previously didn't exhibit problems. The issues of runt frames continues to haunt the AMD CrossFire technology.

AMD has to address this issue and they will sooner or later. They have no choice with all these reviews.

Quote:
From a single GPU perspective though, the Radeon HD 7870 is indeed faster than the GeForce GTX 660 in nearly all of our tests, whether that be single monitor or multi-monitor configurations. Buyers that are really only concerned with single card options then you might not care about the CrossFire or Eyefinity problems we have witnessed over the past two weeks.
So fine Nvidia is better at Dual GPU, but what about Single, Triple and Quad GPU.


Quote:
I think the takeaway from the current state of Frame Rating is that while AMD's single GPU graphics cards offer fantastic performance per dollar, there is a fundamental problem with the CrossFire and CrossFire + Eyefinity technology that needs to be addressed by AMD. Even though there is still much research to be done on the subject of the full effect of the results and the discrepancies we are seeing in our CrossFire results, the fact is that something is fundamentally different between CrossFire and SLI, and in my hands on time with graphics cards over many years and over the last 18 months with this capture capability, NVIDIA is doing multi-GPU better wth.gif (He meant Better ONLY with Dual GPUs) .

Again, his review his misleading... Nvidia does better at DUAL GPU(s) (for now) but they are MUCH worse with Triple and Quad GPUs. (SCALING IS REAL BAD with Tri and Quad).

Don't get me wrong but my QuadFire beats ALLLLLLL Quad SLI setup (almost even the Titan) with no stutterring.

And all of you even mentionned that its a Dual GPU issue and not Tri or Quad. (Don't make me quote all your previous posts about this).

Quote:
AMD has promised to fix this, and we are going to hold them to it. We differ on how dramatic an impact runt frames and dropped frames have on the user experience, but they are not denying that there is an issue many gamers are seeing. That's the good news. The bad news is that it may take until well into the summer to see something from AMD that will start to address the concerns we have. But better late than never and we'll continue to push forward.

Our next step is to look at the many user-submitted solutions for this AMD issue including the full effects of enabling Vsync, applications like RadeonPro and how we can measure changes in input latency because of frame meter.

So the fix is just around the corner biggrin.gif . Vsync already solve some issue.

thumb.gif
Edited by KaRLiToS - 4/6/13 at 10:23am
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post #447 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaRLiToS View Post

AMD has to address this issue and they will sooner or later. They have no choice with all these (paid) reviews.
So fine Nvidia is better at Dual GPU, but what about Single, Triple and Quad GPU.
Again, his review his misleading... Nvidia does better at DUAL GPU(s) (for now) but they are MUCH worse with Triple and Quad GPUs. (SCALING IS REAL BAD with Tri and Quad).

Don't get me wrong but my QuadFire beats ALLLLLLL Quad SLI setup (almost even the Titan) with no stutterring.

And all of you even mentionned that its a Dual GPU issue and not Tri or Quad. (Don't make me quote all your previous posts about this).
So the fix is just around the corner biggrin.gif . Vsync already solve some issue.

thumb.gif
did geocities take a dump on your keyboard while you were typing that?
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post #448 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post

In sleeping dogs you can't compare game smoothness when one set of cards is producing IQ the way the developer intended while the other set of cards is missing certain IQ renderings. This invalidates the test. If anyone want to still claim that the setup with a lower IQ is smooth you do so based on the fact that it's not rendering as much on screen as the other set of cards.

Which is really funny because it appears that some may indeed still see it that way.

I re-installed the game just now, and took some screenshots for ya. thumb.gif

I'm not sure why they're missing in that review, but in my game, well, you be the judge.

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

Any other screenshots you want me to take?
Edited by 2010rig - 4/6/13 at 10:27am
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post #449 of 542
2010Rig, screenshots ?? Take a screenshot of a game that is artifacting to death and you won't see the artifacts.

And what do you use as comparaison, NOTHING. So your shots are irrevelant.

You said my videos were usuless, but at least it wasnt a screenshot. It was an actual video of what I was seing. Screenshots are not reveling the real colors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post

did geocities take a dump on your keyboard while you were typing that?

How is this on-topic. Very professionnal of yours. thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif


Edited by KaRLiToS - 4/6/13 at 10:28am
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post #450 of 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaRLiToS View Post

2010Rig, screenshots ?? Take a screenshot of a game that is artifacting to death and you won't see the artifacts.

and what do you use as comparaison, NOTHING. So your shots are irrevelant.

Come on Karlitos, try to keep up with the convo. tongue.gif
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