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Which cooling type is better. - Page 3

post #21 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PimpSkyline View Post

The 3970X has a higher BIN, but does have an extra 20W TDP. But the 3970X can go up to the higher Ghz with same or almost same VID as the 3960X, so then they call it the 3970X instead of a 3960X.

The Haswell thing is the Newest line of Intel CPU's 4770K for example. But since the 3970X, JUST came out, it's of the Haswell Origin, and i Don't mean it's a HAswell chip, because it is still a Ivy, but the New 3970X is made on a Ivy chip Model, but with Haswell's Silicon improvements. How do i know this? Well the New Batch of 3770K's can OC at higher volts with less Vcore and also at lower temps, so since the 3970X came out around the same time, it has also go the "Improvements" on it.

What i am trying to say is, think of the 3770K/3930K when it launched, it was a Xeon in Xbox 360 lingo, then the 3960X/K was the Falcon in Xbox Lingo, now the New Batched 3770K/3970X is the Jasper in Xbox lingo...it's the Latest Remade and Improved version of the same thing or same CPU Core. Hope you understand all this lol

So with all that in mind, you *Should* be able to clock a New Batched 3770K or Any 3970X higher then their Old counterparts, with less heat or Vcore. (Should is the Key word, since ALL CPU's can Not be guaranteed alike)
Maybe you have some sort of a point that i do not believe or get.
My point is that in the previous reviews.
The 3960x hit the same overclock with less temps.
Any way , maybe this is some sort of an odd one , i do not know.
But i was not able to find a single review comparing both CPUs at the same clocks to check if what you are saying is true or not.

Any way , Its off topic.
smile.gif
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post #22 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinZz View Post

I am currently on air cooling.
I am thinking of upgrading , and i found that there are several types of cooling.

Water Cooling (Liquid Cooling)
Peltiers / TEC
Phase Change
Dry Ice/ Liquid Nitrogen

How much is the performance difference between each one of those , and how about there maintenance and installation?
Also regarding the water cooling (Liquid Cooling) , I was able to find out that even a non-conductive liquid coolant will become conductive after a while. and that distilled water is considered a good coolant.
Any advices regarding this?
ty,



Unless you plan on overclocking your system there isn't much of a point with going with anything other than high end air cooling. If you to plan on overclocking your setup then definitely upgrade.

Dry Ice and Liquid Nitrogen cooling ARE NOT for standard use, they are for short term periods where you need to put an extremely powerful overclock to do very power consuming tasks, so they shouldn't even be considered.





Phase change cooling isn't recommended unless you are already well read into it, which I'm assuming you aren't. You need to insulate and waterproof the inside of your board. As previously stated they're loud, adds quite a bit to your power bill, and are not practical unless you plan to do some heavy overclocking.

As for your statement about "All coolants eventually being conductive" the point of having a non conductive liquid is so you can install it without having to worry about accidentally getting a drop on your equipment and destroying it. They are non conductive when you first install it so when you leak test it when you first install it you don't break your system. Once installed you should NEVER have to worry about whether or not the fluid may damage your equipment, because if that is a problem you are installing it very poorly which is hard to do XD





If you do go TEC cooling you will still go liquid cooling because you NEED to liquid cool the hot end of your TEC, air cooling it just isn't gunna happen. TECs don't dissipate heat, they move it it from one side of the block to the other, as well as adding their own heat. If you do decide to do TEC cooling you will need insulate the backside of your motherboard, as well as the area surrounding your CPU block. Basically if you don't do this if there is the slightest bit of moisture in the air it will condense and you will get water on your motherboard. It's obvious why that's a very bad thing.

There are two options for TEC cooling.

1: You can sandwich a high powered TEC block in between your CPU and liquid cooling block. If you do this you will need an APU (Auxiliary power unit) because you need a very high power TEC which will need to run at voltages probably double than what your PSU can produce. With your CPU you will want AT LEAST 300 watts of cooling. They sell a TEC that can cool up to 400watts BUT it is a 28v peltier. As you get past 13v on that TEC it becomes less efficient (meaning the heat it adds will increase in %)
You could also buy a copper block and put 2 TECs on it, and the other side o the copper block on the CPU so you could run them at a lower voltage, because there would be 2 of them. This would be a pain in the arse to insulate though, but it's still an option.

This is generally cheaper than option two, but you can't get as good of results

Then there's the other option

2: build a TEC cooler. This is where you put a passive heatsink on the coldside and submerge it into a reservoir to cool the fluid. If you do this you need to take all the same precautions to insulating your motherboard, but you ALSO need to use a coolant with some kind of antifreeze otherwise ice will build up on the passive heatsink and restrict flow as well as potentially damaging the TEC.
if you do option two you will have 2 separate liquid cooling systems. There will be a loop with REALLY LOW temps that will cool your equipment, and another loop to cool the TECs hotside.

You will end up putting a few hundred $, possibly up to a thousand $ if you want to have a TEC chiller

IMPORTANT NOTE: When I say a few hundred $ I am talking about JUST the TEC set up, you will still be putting in an additional few hundred for your basic liquid cooling.



Then there's basic liquid cooling. It takes a small amount of maintenance monthly but it's very effective. You will put in about probably $400 with your setup (or around $700 if you decide to cool things OTHER than your CPU)

It works like a charm, and don't worry about your coolant stop being "non conductive" after a while. if you do your setup right this shouldn't be an issue, as previously mentioned it being non conductive is just a safety feature when installing it.
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post #23 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZytheEKS View Post

Unless you plan on overclocking your system there isn't much of a point with going with anything other than high end air cooling. If you to plan on overclocking your setup then definitely upgrade.

Dry Ice and Liquid Nitrogen cooling ARE NOT for standard use, they are for short term periods where you need to put an extremely powerful overclock to do very power consuming tasks, so they shouldn't even be considered.





Phase change cooling isn't recommended unless you are already well read into it, which I'm assuming you aren't. You need to insulate and waterproof the inside of your board. As previously stated they're loud, adds quite a bit to your power bill, and are not practical unless you plan to do some heavy overclocking.

As for your statement about "All coolants eventually being conductive" the point of having a non conductive liquid is so you can install it without having to worry about accidentally getting a drop on your equipment and destroying it. They are non conductive when you first install it so when you leak test it when you first install it you don't break your system. Once installed you should NEVER have to worry about whether or not the fluid may damage your equipment, because if that is a problem you are installing it very poorly which is hard to do XD





If you do go TEC cooling you will still go liquid cooling because you NEED to liquid cool the hot end of your TEC, air cooling it just isn't gunna happen. TECs don't dissipate heat, they move it it from one side of the block to the other, as well as adding their own heat. If you do decide to do TEC cooling you will need insulate the backside of your motherboard, as well as the area surrounding your CPU block. Basically if you don't do this if there is the slightest bit of moisture in the air it will condense and you will get water on your motherboard. It's obvious why that's a very bad thing.

There are two options for TEC cooling.

1: You can sandwich a high powered TEC block in between your CPU and liquid cooling block. If you do this you will need an APU (Auxiliary power unit) because you need a very high power TEC which will need to run at voltages probably double than what your PSU can produce. With your CPU you will want AT LEAST 300 watts of cooling. They sell a TEC that can cool up to 400watts BUT it is a 28v peltier. As you get past 13v on that TEC it becomes less efficient (meaning the heat it adds will increase in %)
You could also buy a copper block and put 2 TECs on it, and the other side o the copper block on the CPU so you could run them at a lower voltage, because there would be 2 of them. This would be a pain in the arse to insulate though, but it's still an option.

This is generally cheaper than option two, but you can't get as good of results

Then there's the other option

2: build a TEC cooler. This is where you put a passive heatsink on the coldside and submerge it into a reservoir to cool the fluid. If you do this you need to take all the same precautions to insulating your motherboard, but you ALSO need to use a coolant with some kind of antifreeze otherwise ice will build up on the passive heatsink and restrict flow as well as potentially damaging the TEC.
if you do option two you will have 2 separate liquid cooling systems. There will be a loop with REALLY LOW temps that will cool your equipment, and another loop to cool the TECs hotside.

You will end up putting a few hundred $, possibly up to a thousand $ if you want to have a TEC chiller

IMPORTANT NOTE: When I say a few hundred $ I am talking about JUST the TEC set up, you will still be putting in an additional few hundred for your basic liquid cooling.



Then there's basic liquid cooling. It takes a small amount of maintenance monthly but it's very effective. You will put in about probably $400 with your setup (or around $700 if you decide to cool things OTHER than your CPU)

It works like a charm, and don't worry about your coolant stop being "non conductive" after a while. if you do your setup right this shouldn't be an issue, as previously mentioned it being non conductive is just a safety feature when installing it.

Spot on. thumb.gif +Rep
post #24 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZytheEKS View Post

Unless you plan on overclocking your system there isn't much of a point with going with anything other than high end air cooling. If you to plan on overclocking your setup then definitely upgrade.

Dry Ice and Liquid Nitrogen cooling ARE NOT for standard use, they are for short term periods where you need to put an extremely powerful overclock to do very power consuming tasks, so they shouldn't even be considered.





Phase change cooling isn't recommended unless you are already well read into it, which I'm assuming you aren't. You need to insulate and waterproof the inside of your board. As previously stated they're loud, adds quite a bit to your power bill, and are not practical unless you plan to do some heavy overclocking.

As for your statement about "All coolants eventually being conductive" the point of having a non conductive liquid is so you can install it without having to worry about accidentally getting a drop on your equipment and destroying it. They are non conductive when you first install it so when you leak test it when you first install it you don't break your system. Once installed you should NEVER have to worry about whether or not the fluid may damage your equipment, because if that is a problem you are installing it very poorly which is hard to do XD





If you do go TEC cooling you will still go liquid cooling because you NEED to liquid cool the hot end of your TEC, air cooling it just isn't gunna happen. TECs don't dissipate heat, they move it it from one side of the block to the other, as well as adding their own heat. If you do decide to do TEC cooling you will need insulate the backside of your motherboard, as well as the area surrounding your CPU block. Basically if you don't do this if there is the slightest bit of moisture in the air it will condense and you will get water on your motherboard. It's obvious why that's a very bad thing.

There are two options for TEC cooling.

1: You can sandwich a high powered TEC block in between your CPU and liquid cooling block. If you do this you will need an APU (Auxiliary power unit) because you need a very high power TEC which will need to run at voltages probably double than what your PSU can produce. With your CPU you will want AT LEAST 300 watts of cooling. They sell a TEC that can cool up to 400watts BUT it is a 28v peltier. As you get past 13v on that TEC it becomes less efficient (meaning the heat it adds will increase in %)
You could also buy a copper block and put 2 TECs on it, and the other side o the copper block on the CPU so you could run them at a lower voltage, because there would be 2 of them. This would be a pain in the arse to insulate though, but it's still an option.

This is generally cheaper than option two, but you can't get as good of results

Then there's the other option

2: build a TEC cooler. This is where you put a passive heatsink on the coldside and submerge it into a reservoir to cool the fluid. If you do this you need to take all the same precautions to insulating your motherboard, but you ALSO need to use a coolant with some kind of antifreeze otherwise ice will build up on the passive heatsink and restrict flow as well as potentially damaging the TEC.
if you do option two you will have 2 separate liquid cooling systems. There will be a loop with REALLY LOW temps that will cool your equipment, and another loop to cool the TECs hotside.

You will end up putting a few hundred $, possibly up to a thousand $ if you want to have a TEC chiller

IMPORTANT NOTE: When I say a few hundred $ I am talking about JUST the TEC set up, you will still be putting in an additional few hundred for your basic liquid cooling.



Then there's basic liquid cooling. It takes a small amount of maintenance monthly but it's very effective. You will put in about probably $400 with your setup (or around $700 if you decide to cool things OTHER than your CPU)

It works like a charm, and don't worry about your coolant stop being "non conductive" after a while. if you do your setup right this shouldn't be an issue, as previously mentioned it being non conductive is just a safety feature when installing it.
Ok , Thanks for that in-dpeth answer.
I did not understand alot of what you have said.

But this is what i basically understood.
Any thing beyond air needs alot of work, time and experience.

My goals are to reach a good overclock for my system to increase its performance without having to suffer a huge electric bill.
I think the most effective one is water cooling considering (performance gain/power used) or (performance gain/work+time).
I want to reach like 5Ghz or more if i am not going to greatly damage my processor (24/7 overclock) but normal system loading.
Overclock my trifire 7970 and my RAMs (Run them on their stated speed 2400- right now they are downclocked).


So , Do you see that cooling my tiny system can be done with water cooling considering that i want to water cool all the components that are worth cooling (Can be overclocked with a significant benefit).
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post #25 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinZz View Post

Any thing beyond air needs alot of work, time and experience.

Not really.

You can still go "all-in-one" water cooling (like using an H100/H100i or Kraken x60, etc) kit where everything is already hooked up and you just bolt it in to your case and bolt on the included fans and bolt the already attached water block to your CPU just like a conventional heat sink. It takes about 15 minutes to do and that includes unboxing and actually reading the instructions, and all you need is a phillips screw driver. There is ZERO maintenance, and you get very good results.

If you look at my build log for "Double Twins", you will see where I just built up 4 systems with the Kraken x60 and it was super easy and I show a lot of pictures and show the results and give a mini-review.


The next hardest up are water cooling kits, that include everything except the water. Typically, you can get these from companies like XSPC and perform slightly better than the "all-in-one" kits like the Kraken, but they cost about twice as much and will require you to do a slight amount more thinking since you will have to cut some tubing and hook things up, but they aren't hard. Maybe 45-60 minutes total to install one. While they cost more, they cool a little better, but best of all, they are expandable so you can cool your video card either now or later just by buying a water block for your video card.


But as ZytheEKS said, unless you plan on overclocking, there really is no reason to use anything but air. To be honest, if you aren't going to overclock, there really isn't any reason to use even an after-market heatsink and fan at all.
post #26 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Not really.

You can still go "all-in-one" water cooling (like using an H100/H100i or Kraken x60, etc) kit where everything is already hooked up and you just bolt it in to your case and bolt on the included fans and bolt the already attached water block to your CPU just like a conventional heat sink. It takes about 15 minutes to do and that includes unboxing and actually reading the instructions, and all you need is a phillips screw driver. There is ZERO maintenance, and you get very good results.

If you look at my build log for "Double Twins", you will see where I just built up 4 systems with the Kraken x60 and it was super easy and I show a lot of pictures and show the results and give a mini-review.


The next hardest up are water cooling kits, that include everything except the water. Typically, you can get these from companies like XSPC and perform slightly better than the "all-in-one" kits like the Kraken, but they cost about twice as much and will require you to do a slight amount more thinking since you will have to cut some tubing and hook things up, but they aren't hard. Maybe 45-60 minutes total to install one. While they cost more, they cool a little better, but best of all, they are expandable so you can cool your video card either now or later just by buying a water block for your video card.


But as ZytheEKS said, unless you plan on overclocking, there really is no reason to use anything but air. To be honest, if you aren't going to overclock, there really isn't any reason to use even an after-market heatsink and fan at all.
Well , I am overclocking my trifire now.
I want to further overclock them , and i want to overclock my 3960x.
I used one of the all-in-one water coolers the H80.
I want to upgrade.
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post #27 of 46
post #28 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinZz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PimpSkyline View Post

The 3970X has a higher BIN, but does have an extra 20W TDP. But the 3970X can go up to the higher Ghz with same or almost same VID as the 3960X, so then they call it the 3970X instead of a 3960X.

The Haswell thing is the Newest line of Intel CPU's 4770K for example. But since the 3970X, JUST came out, it's of the Haswell Origin, and i Don't mean it's a HAswell chip, because it is still a Ivy, but the New 3970X is made on a Ivy chip Model, but with Haswell's Silicon improvements. How do i know this? Well the New Batch of 3770K's can OC at higher volts with less Vcore and also at lower temps, so since the 3970X came out around the same time, it has also go the "Improvements" on it.

What i am trying to say is, think of the 3770K/3930K when it launched, it was a Xeon in Xbox 360 lingo, then the 3960X/K was the Falcon in Xbox Lingo, now the New Batched 3770K/3970X is the Jasper in Xbox lingo...it's the Latest Remade and Improved version of the same thing or same CPU Core. Hope you understand all this lol

So with all that in mind, you *Should* be able to clock a New Batched 3770K or Any 3970X higher then their Old counterparts, with less heat or Vcore. (Should is the Key word, since ALL CPU's can Not be guaranteed alike)
Maybe you have some sort of a point that i do not believe or get.
My point is that in the previous reviews.
The 3960x hit the same overclock with less temps.
Any way , maybe this is some sort of an odd one , i do not know.
But i was not able to find a single review comparing both CPUs at the same clocks to check if what you are saying is true or not.

Any way , Its off topic.
smile.gif

Well thanks... wink.gif lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by BinZz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Not really.

You can still go "all-in-one" water cooling (like using an H100/H100i or Kraken x60, etc) kit where everything is already hooked up and you just bolt it in to your case and bolt on the included fans and bolt the already attached water block to your CPU just like a conventional heat sink. It takes about 15 minutes to do and that includes unboxing and actually reading the instructions, and all you need is a phillips screw driver. There is ZERO maintenance, and you get very good results.

If you look at my build log for "Double Twins", you will see where I just built up 4 systems with the Kraken x60 and it was super easy and I show a lot of pictures and show the results and give a mini-review.


The next hardest up are water cooling kits, that include everything except the water. Typically, you can get these from companies like XSPC and perform slightly better than the "all-in-one" kits like the Kraken, but they cost about twice as much and will require you to do a slight amount more thinking since you will have to cut some tubing and hook things up, but they aren't hard. Maybe 45-60 minutes total to install one. While they cost more, they cool a little better, but best of all, they are expandable so you can cool your video card either now or later just by buying a water block for your video card.


But as ZytheEKS said, unless you plan on overclocking, there really is no reason to use anything but air. To be honest, if you aren't going to overclock, there really isn't any reason to use even an after-market heatsink and fan at all.
Well , I am overclocking my trifire now.
I want to further overclock them , and i want to overclock my 3960x.
I used one of the all-in-one water coolers the H80.
I want to upgrade.

If you want the best bang for buck CPU and GPU cooling for OC, go Custom WC. Just be sure to use the fittings that require to you screw a plug over the tubes to keep them for coming loose wink.gif
 
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post #29 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZytheEKS View Post

*edited for size
As for your statement about "All coolants eventually being conductive" the point of having a non conductive liquid is so you can install it without having to worry about accidentally getting a drop on your equipment and destroying it. They are non conductive when you first install it so when you leak test it when you first install it you don't break your system. Once installed you should NEVER have to worry about whether or not the fluid may damage your equipment, because if that is a problem you are installing it very poorly which is hard to do XD

It works like a charm, and don't worry about your coolant stop being "non conductive" after a while. if you do your setup right this shouldn't be an issue, as previously mentioned it being non conductive is just a safety feature when installing it.

umm no

the moment the so called "non conductive fluid" hits dust in your system your system would be done. if you are using it to leak test and you have a leak.your system would still be done.

end of story.

did you read the link on martins liquid lab ?

so unless you have the worlds cleanest system and a "clean environment" there is a reason most water cooling people reccomend having a second psu to test for leaks and running a leak test out side of your case and also once installed. and they also ( again i said most ) recommend just using basic store brand distilled water. if you want to buy in to non conductive feel free. but when i was doing my research. i found plenty of people who still killed their system from using non conductive coolant while filling it for the first time it is just more hype to get you to spend more monies on some basic tap water.

as for the bold part. everyone makes mistakes. and have you not read up on how many issues people have had AFTER it was installed. stuff happens. i would rather not take a chance on my pc that i have spent alot of time and money on
Edited by Mega Man - 4/3/13 at 8:04am
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post #30 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

umm no

the moment the so called "non conductive fluid" hits dust in your system your system would be done. if you are using it to leak test and you have a leak.your system would still be done.

end of story.

did you read the link on martins liquid lab ?

so unless you have the worlds cleanest system and a "clean environment" there is a reason most water cooling people reccomend having a second psu to test for leaks and running a leak test out side of your case and also once installed. and they also ( again i said most ) recommend just using basic store brand distilled water. if you want to buy in to non conductive feel free. but when i was doing my research. i found plenty of people who still killed their system from using non conductive coolant while filling it for the first time it is just more hype to get you to spend more monies on some basic tap water.

as for the bold part. everyone makes mistakes. and have you not read up on how many issues people have had AFTER it was installed. stuff happens. i would rather not take a chance on my pc that i have spent alot of time and money on

I have a 1year used fluid. It was used in a very very dusty enviroment. And it's STILL non conductive (tested it).Also this fluid in a few days after first filling leaked on my motherboard. And even today (1.5year after this) It's still alive
Edited by Pawelr98 - 4/3/13 at 8:41am
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