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"Sorting Out the Linux Desktop Mess" Is it a mess? Must it be cleaned up? - Page 2

post #11 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transhour View Post

I think the problem is looking at linux as a singular entity.

in reality any standard that is put forth, is ultimately in the end is going be as effective as the largest distro that is using it.
Which is why I said I don't think theres a problem because the desktop market target Ubuntu, which the others port onto their distro. And enterprise software targets either LSB or POSIX in the wider sense.

case in point: Arch is one of the less "standard" of all the mainstream Linuxes, and I've never once had problems getting software to run on that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transhour View Post

I would like to see some things unified in linux, but for the most part, its really an already lost argument. We are at a turning point atm in the development of linux, where the things that make it great are also the same things that in end keep us divided.
We're not at any turning point because that argument is as old as Linux itself. Nothing has changed in that regard yet Linux has still grown in popularity.
post #12 of 37
^ exactly.
post #13 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transhour View Post

I think the problem is looking at linux as a singular entity.

in reality any standard that is put forth, is ultimately in the end is going be as effective as the largest distro that is using it.

I would like to see some things unified in linux, but for the most part, its really an already lost argument. We are at a turning point atm in the development of linux, where the things that make it great are also the same things that in end keep us divided.

All I want is that if you're going to remake the wheel (Mir) that it should in some way be able without any effort translate from one distro to another. So you can make Mir, Wayland, and whatever the latest fork of it is...but they all have to have the ability to interpret the commands from the DE and so on the same way. PS: I'm sure I just described something stupid there.
     
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post #14 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

All I want is that if you're going to remake the wheel (Mir) that it should in some way be able without any effort translate from one distro to another. So you can make Mir, Wayland, and whatever the latest fork of it is...but they all have to have the ability to interpret the commands from the DE and so on the same way. PS: I'm sure I just described something stupid there.

This is one of the few problems with ubuntu being the 'standard' is they want to do things their way and tie it so tightly into their own kernel and software that it's nearly impossible to use on other distro's.

Look how long it took to get Unity to work on other distro's :|
post #15 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Which is why I said I don't think theres a problem because the desktop market target Ubuntu, which the others port onto their distro. And enterprise software targets either LSB or POSIX in the wider sense.

case in point: Arch is one of the less "standard" of all the mainstream Linuxes, and I've never once had problems getting software to run on that.
We're not at any turning point because that argument is as old as Linux itself. Nothing has changed in that regard yet Linux has still grown in popularity.

I'd like to disagree only on the point that we are at a turning point of Linux development; In fact we just came out of one turn and now our driver is steering us in another direction entirely. For the greater part of the mid '00s Linux development was greatly focused on embedded systems and supercomputing/computational applications. At the end of that decade Linux development's focus was greatly shifted to modular expansion and enabling growth, as well as increasing scalability with the advent of massive gains in hardware resource availability per system. And finally, the second half of last decade was spent shifting the focus into mobility advancements, including further power management advances. Now, finally, Linux development focus has shifted again, this time to Desktop and Server specific advancements.

There have however, been constant development trends - usability, standardization, etc... but more specific focus is shifting at around a 5-year pace; there aren't any HUGE turns in development, and things certainly haven't done a complete 180; but we are at another turning point, we are pivoting toward a huge push in mainstream usage advancements; Linux is becoming a player in the OS game again, and developers are getting ready. Streamlining installation processes, creating user friendly controls and standardizing information and workflow - these are the things we will see advances in soon; I can only hope that X11 will either DIE, or get revamped with PROPER DOCUMENTATION.
    
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post #16 of 37
linux has had a heavy server focus since the 90s. I've been managing Linux servers for about 15 years and I've not seen any shifts in focus there.

I've also been running linux on the desktop for over a decade and there has been some great desktop focused distros (eg Mandrake). And some great desktop environments too. Even Compiz Fusion must be over a decade old by now.

I think it's easy to mistake the recent success and publicity of desktop linux as a shift in focus, but it's a movement that's been happening for years (hence all the 'year of the desktop' jokes).
Edited by Plan9 - 4/5/13 at 7:29pm
post #17 of 37
It's a mess, I'll agree. Oddly enough the mess that is linux, when you look at it as an OS, isn't all that important. At least the major strong points work in a fashion that can be used by proprietary software. We have everything we need as a desktop, what is being debated is other features/functions of the desktop itself. With the exception of Mir, which I'm still unsure of. If compatibility forms and we can keep traditional xorg functions so that applications don't have to be re-built. It'll be fine, let Ubuntu do their own thing. I don't personally care if Unity is one Fedora or any other distro, we have plenty of desktop managers. That's not a feature/function that really keeps it from being a desktop product. As long as cross-distro applications can do the tasks required it shouldn't matter what desktop they use. Fedora should do the same things as Arch, Debian, Gentoo, ect....

To put it bluntly, the worries about things like Unity or Mir should be strictly a distro specific issue. Mainly, the developers should be the ones who handle it. If we want the desktop market, things like source code and all that crap isn't anything the users should worry about. It's nice, just like in OSX you can build FOSS code. But just like OSX, we will need a binary distro that users can deal with and not have to worry about the more experienced techniques.

So all in all, if Ubuntu builds their own applications and programs to Mir for their distro. Well, I'm not going to stop them. I won't even bad talk it, not my choice and not my distribution. If they pressure people into no longer supporting the rest of Linux and write only to their Distro. That is where I would draw the line. We can't stop them from making the distro how they want it, nor should we.
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post #18 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

So all in all, if Ubuntu builds their own applications and programs to Mir for their distro. Well, I'm not going to stop them. I won't even bad talk it, not my choice and not my distribution. If they pressure people into no longer supporting the rest of Linux and write only to their Distro. That is where I would draw the line. We can't stop them from making the distro how they want it, nor should we.

That pretty much sums up what everyone is worried about. Companies, like Valve and others who are working on making Linux products, are focusing on Ubuntu support. If those companies make their products compatible with Mir, and Mir compatibility breaks compatibility with other display servers then other distros will be forced to use Mir if they want to be able to run those products. I think everyone pretty much agrees that as long as things don't become Mir only, then why care about what Ubuntu is doing.
post #19 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by FateousMaximous View Post

That pretty much sums up what everyone is worried about. Companies, like Valve and others who are working on making Linux products, are focusing on Ubuntu support. If those companies make their products compatible with Mir, and Mir compatibility breaks compatibility with other display servers then other distros will be forced to use Mir if they want to be able to run those products. I think everyone pretty much agrees that as long as things don't become Mir only, then why care about what Ubuntu is doing.

The thing is, Ubuntu pushes new things to fix problems we've had. Is it our fault they want to push a new system? If developers choose to develop for that, because they want the product to be done on that platform then why should we say anything? Sure, it's unfortunate for the rest of the linux world. Pulse had the same acceptance originally. When it came out, I was against it. Not because it wasn't a good idea but because it wasn't quite ready to be mainstream. You saw all sorts of bugs, issues, problems between developers. Now that it is a bit more polished you see every distro adapting it in some way. Not every distro, guess that is an overstatement. It's been adopted much more now and more accepted because it works. If it had come out originally with the functionality it has now, I would have said it was a good idea then. Now I think it's a good idea but it doesn't solve the problem. ALSA still needs to be re-built, we need a better audio system. For now it works and pulse seems to fix a lot of the symptoms we had before. Hopefully Mir goes somewhere, if it doesn't and only ends up an Ubuntu solution then well... I guess it'll be one of those distro differences.
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post #20 of 37
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Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

The thing is, Ubuntu pushes new things to fix problems we've had. Is it our fault they want to push a new system? If developers choose to develop for that, because they want the product to be done on that platform then why should we say anything? Sure, it's unfortunate for the rest of the linux world. Pulse had the same acceptance originally. When it came out, I was against it. Not because it wasn't a good idea but because it wasn't quite ready to be mainstream. You saw all sorts of bugs, issues, problems between developers. Now that it is a bit more polished you see every distro adapting it in some way. Not every distro, guess that is an overstatement. It's been adopted much more now and more accepted because it works. If it had come out originally with the functionality it has now, I would have said it was a good idea then. Now I think it's a good idea but it doesn't solve the problem. ALSA still needs to be re-built, we need a better audio system. For now it works and pulse seems to fix a lot of the symptoms we had before. Hopefully Mir goes somewhere, if it doesn't and only ends up an Ubuntu solution then well... I guess it'll be one of those distro differences.

I guess we see pressuring people into no longer supporting the rest of Linux and to only support a single distro, differently. Because I think that if by making a program Mir compatible, you end up breaking functionality with other display servers (be it X or Wayland or whatever) you're pressuring devs to support one distro more than others. Then again I personally don't like Canonical and think they're going to keep Mir for Ubuntu only. Maybe you have more faith in them then I do, but I think that if they really cared about Linux as a whole they would have devs helping with X.org, Wayland, or other projects instead of working on their own project by themselves.
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