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"Sorting Out the Linux Desktop Mess" Is it a mess? Must it be cleaned up? - Page 3

post #21 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by FateousMaximous View Post

I guess we see pressuring people into no longer supporting the rest of Linux and to only support a single distro, differently. Because I think that if by making a program Mir compatible, you end up breaking functionality with other display servers (be it X or Wayland or whatever) you're pressuring devs to support one distro more than others. Then again I personally don't like Canonical and think they're going to keep Mir for Ubuntu only. Maybe you have more faith in them then I do, but I think that if they really cared about Linux as a whole they would have devs helping with X.org, Wayland, or other projects instead of working on their own project by themselves.

One of the issues, it's why Trashour said what he said, is the diversity. Too many devs have their idea of how things should be fixed, so much arguing over implementation. In the end, for a product to be successful that's all trivial banter. Ubuntu isn't here just because they like linux, they now have something at stake. So instead of playing this banter game, they are doing what any good management would do. Who cares what the problem is, fix it. They see the problem, they fix it. If the rest of Linux doesn't like that, maybe the problem should have been actively fixed long ago instead of "oh yeah, that's an issue, we'll get to it eventually". ALSA was supposed to be fixed, what happened to that? How long has Xorg issues been pushed aside? If they want to go commercial, and they do, these types of issues need to be fixed without that mind set. They can't wait for the rest of Linux to get it's panties all fixed, either do it now or deal with us doing it. That's what I see, all the complaints are from people who don't really care to do the work. If you don't want to do the work, take what you get.
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post #22 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

One of the issues, it's why Trashour said what he said, is the diversity. Too many devs have their idea of how things should be fixed, so much arguing over implementation. In the end, for a product to be successful that's all trivial banter. Ubuntu isn't here just because they like linux, they now have something at stake. So instead of playing this banter game, they are doing what any good management would do. Who cares what the problem is, fix it. They see the problem, they fix it. If the rest of Linux doesn't like that, maybe the problem should have been actively fixed long ago instead of "oh yeah, that's an issue, we'll get to it eventually". ALSA was supposed to be fixed, what happened to that? How long has Xorg issues been pushed aside? If they want to go commercial, and they do, these types of issues need to be fixed without that mind set. They can't wait for the rest of Linux to get it's panties all fixed, either do it now or deal with us doing it. That's what I see, all the complaints are from people who don't really care to do the work. If you don't want to do the work, take what you get.

That's a problem in itself right there.

2 Sayings in relation to this whole thing.
  1. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
  2. Can't fix stupid.

Who's to say something is a problem anyways? Everyone's got an opinion, who's right?
post #23 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

One of the issues, it's why Trashour said what he said, is the diversity. Too many devs have their idea of how things should be fixed, so much arguing over implementation. In the end, for a product to be successful that's all trivial banter. Ubuntu isn't here just because they like linux, they now have something at stake. So instead of playing this banter game, they are doing what any good management would do. Who cares what the problem is, fix it. They see the problem, they fix it. If the rest of Linux doesn't like that, maybe the problem should have been actively fixed long ago instead of "oh yeah, that's an issue, we'll get to it eventually". ALSA was supposed to be fixed, what happened to that? How long has Xorg issues been pushed aside? If they want to go commercial, and they do, these types of issues need to be fixed without that mind set. They can't wait for the rest of Linux to get it's panties all fixed, either do it now or deal with us doing it. That's what I see, all the complaints are from people who don't really care to do the work. If you don't want to do the work, take what you get.

That's a problem in itself right there.

2 Sayings in relation to this whole thing.
  1. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
  2. Can't fix stupid.

Who's to say something is a problem anyways? Everyone's got an opinion, who's right?

I see some problems (mainly caused by Ubuntu) but overall I don't see it as a 'mess'
post #24 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

If they pressure people into no longer supporting the rest of Linux and write only to their Distro. That is where I would draw the line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

This is one of the few problems with ubuntu being the 'standard' is they want to do things their way and tie it so tightly into their own kernel and software that it's nearly impossible to use on other distro's.

Look how long it took to get Unity to work on other distro's :|
Take a look at Canonical's track record with Unity, they made it difficult to use on any other distro, so assuming they continue to operate the same way Mir will be fairly difficult to get working on any other distro. Meaning that if Valve makes a game for Ubuntu it doesn't work for any other distro, and the reason why Valve picked Ubuntu is because it's the most Windows like Linux Distro. So where is this line you said you were going to draw? Because they are purposely forcing devs to make things for only their distro over others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

One of the issues, it's why Trashour said what he said, is the diversity.
You might think that diversity is an issue, but I personally think that is is one of Linux's strengths (aka choice). You can choose to use what you want and have an OS your way, instead of being stuck with how someone else thinks your OS should be.
post #25 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

That's a problem in itself right there.

2 Sayings in relation to this whole thing.
  1. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
  2. Can't fix stupid.

Who's to say something is a problem anyways? Everyone's got an opinion, who's right?

Obviously they have an issue with it, so instead of bantering like this they made a decision. That's my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FateousMaximous View Post


Take a look at Canonical's track record with Unity, they made it difficult to use on any other distro, so assuming they continue to operate the same way Mir will be fairly difficult to get working on any other distro. Meaning that if Valve makes a game for Ubuntu it doesn't work for any other distro, and the reason why Valve picked Ubuntu is because it's the most Windows like Linux Distro. So where is this line you said you were going to draw? Because they are purposely forcing devs to make things for only their distro over others.
You might think that diversity is an issue, but I personally think that is is one of Linux's strengths (aka choice). You can choose to use what you want and have an OS your way, instead of being stuck with how someone else thinks your OS should be.

Diversity is a strength and a weakness, diversity can cause many people to disagree. When we disagree nothing gets done.

As for Unity, it's their in-house software. I'm going to say it again, it isn't something that they need to give everyone access too. Nor are they obligated to make it work with other people's solutions. Sure I'd like pacman to work with debs/rpms, does that mean Arch should make the software work with other container formats? Hmm?
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post #26 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

Obviously they have an issue with it, so instead of bantering like this they made a decision. That's my point.

They having an issue with it doesn't mean there's an issue. Just they have a stick up their butt and want to do it their way ( exactly the same task, just tied more into their own system ).
post #27 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

They having an issue with it doesn't mean there's an issue. Just they have a stick up their butt and want to do it their way ( exactly the same task, just tied more into their own system ).

Them having an issue means their is an issue, whether or not it effects you and me. Their is an apparent issue that is strong enough for them to develop Mir for their distro. The same was with Unity. I love how people complain about how long it took Unity to move to other distributions. Only when software is feature rich and wanted do people complain that a distro is being unfair, if it isn't a big thing they ignore it. This is getting attention because people fear useful programs will be Ubuntu only.

To this I say, if you don't like what you are given actively develop something better. That's the whole FOSS aspect, you can (if you want) take code and projects to any distribution. In no way have I ever seen rules that say a distro cannot make specific software and refuse to help people "port" it. They can make distro specific changes, that's the whole beauty of it. If one distro becomes popular to the point that developers flock too it, maybe you shouldn't be using a distro that has a smaller dev team. That's life, either get over it or don't. I might have to run Ubuntu if Steam doesn't port over, I'm not going to cry about it because it doesn't do anything and isn't within my right to say where to take their project. If I didn't like it, I could start my own project.
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post #28 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post


One of the issues, it's why Trashour said what he said, is the diversity. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FateousMaximous View Post



Take a look at Canonical's track record with Unity, they made it difficult to use on any other distro, so assuming they continue to operate the same way Mir will be fairly difficult to get working on any other distro. Meaning that if Valve makes a game for Ubuntu it doesn't work for any other distro, and the reason why Valve picked Ubuntu is because it's the most Windows like Linux Distro. So where is this line you said you were going to draw? Because they are purposely forcing devs to make things for only their distro over others.
You might think that diversity is an issue, but I personally think that is is one of Linux's strengths (aka choice). You can choose to use what you want and have an OS your way, instead of being stuck with how someone else thinks your OS should be.

 

Since i've been brought up :), you know speak of the devil and all, I will try to expand on what i've previous said, and what mushroom is referring to (as it came from a instant message conversation).

 

Quote:
We are at a turning point atm in the development of linux, where the things that make it great are also the same things that in end keep us divided.

 

 

Reading thru this thread, some have obviously misunderstood what i meant here, or only read part of it and instantly hit their "berzerk" button, and have responded before thinking about it.

 

To address some of the things that have been said, Yes we are at a turning point in linux development. this is not some sort of lame ass attempt to claim "year of the linux desktop" or any other foolish thing. the turning point is replacement of xorg, the divide is caused by what many will attribute to linux greatness, choice.

 

Ubuntu, the undeniable, most popular by a great margin distro out there, has literally said they don't care about the linux "ecosystem" (but do you blame them? this supposed community shun's them every chance they get). they have announced that they are developing their own display server, cause xorg nor weyland meets their requirements.

 

The rest of the "community", will either stick with xorg cause they believe nothing is wrong with it, and others will adopt weyland/weston cause they do believe something is wrong with xorg or they will do it out of spite, to fanwank the haters of ubuntu.

 

^ so there you have it, linux/OSS greatest strengths, turns into its greatest weakness. you will now have the 3 camps, spouting off at the mouthpiece why their decision is the best. this will go on for several years, but developers will flock to the most popular, where their application, will see the most acceptance...

 

Now i haven't been asked here this, but i have been asked by several colleagues of mine, do i agree with canonical's decision?

 

This is a tough one to answer, cause i fully support Ubuntu's stated philosophy and goals. Giving us an easy to use, free (as in freedom) operating system. Since the onset of this project and my adoption of ubuntu in 2006/7, I haven't really given much thought to how they would accomplish this, i still haven't. I believe in to use the right tool for the job, and if that tool doesn't exist, then you make it. so the things ubuntu has done of late have more or less gelled with my own personal beliefs, and they have not abandoned their goals or philosophy. I do have my criticism of Ubunut, as i originally didn't care much for Unity, but after seeing what it can do on my tablet, and how much changes are happening with it on the desktop as well, my initial assessment of it has changed, its not horrible as it was, and its quickly moving towards becoming my daily driver.

 

I will also have to stress, I personally find this internal drama in the ecosystem that we are constantly being bombarded with. Is far more damaging to linux, than anything Ubuntu could ever do. A lot of the that is, we simply don't have any leadership in FOSS, well, strong leadership. 

 

Look at the creator of the kernel, there are several videos up on his youtube and tons of articles written in poor taste, about how he said "F* you nvidia", when he should've called for the community to lay pressure on nvidia to be more cooperative and open about their drivers. even if it was said jokingly, the negativity of that statement alone sent a ripple of hate mongering thru out the linux ecosystem, and every elitist nitwit with a blog had something bad to say about nvidia after that, even when before they prolly had no real opinion on the subject.

 

Then you have stallman, who looks like the guy i gave my last dollar to at 7-11 the other night, when given a chance, will remind you how he created GNU and linux should really be GNU/Linux, that its a GNU OS using a linux kernel. i do believe in giving credit, where credit is due, but not when it boils down to semantics.

 

We need strong leadership, if this is a community, the "leaders" we have now, only seem to further divide us. Shuttleworth is no exception, I think he is a fine leader, but only for ubuntu. In times like these a leader should unite us behind the decisions.

 

So in conclusion, this a divide the only weakens Linux. Some support the decision to make linux a viable desktop, where others say they support, but get their panties all in a twist when people try to fix the problems, then you got those ones "CLI is all i need". right now there simply isn't enough information out there, to form a concise opinion on what ubuntu is doing. Mir isn't done, neither is weyland, and xorg, well, it works for now. Its a race i guess.

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post #29 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transhour View Post


Since i've been brought up smile.gif, you know speak of the devil and all, I will try to expand on what i've previous said, and what mushroom is referring to (as it came from a instant message conversation).



Reading thru this thread, some have obviously misunderstood what i meant here, or only read part of it and instantly hit their "berzerk" button, and have responded before thinking about it.

To address some of the things that have been said, Yes we are at a turning point in linux development. this is not some sort of lame ass attempt to claim "year of the linux desktop" or any other foolish thing. the turning point is replacement of xorg, the divide is caused by what many will attribute to linux greatness, choice.

Ubuntu, the undeniable, most popular by a great margin distro out there, has literally said they don't care about the linux "ecosystem" (but do you blame them? this supposed community shun's them every chance they get). they have announced that they are developing their own display server, cause xorg nor weyland meets their requirements.

The rest of the "community", will either stick with xorg cause they believe nothing is wrong with it, and others will adopt weyland/weston cause they do believe something is wrong with xorg or they will do it out of spite, to fanwank the haters of ubuntu.

^ so there you have it, linux/OSS greatest strengths, turns into its greatest weakness. you will now have the 3 camps, spouting off at the mouthpiece why their decision is the best. this will go on for several years, but developers will flock to the most popular, where their application, will see the most acceptance...

Now i haven't been asked here this, but i have been asked by several colleagues of mine, do i agree with canonical's decision?

This is a tough one to answer, cause i fully support Ubuntu's stated philosophy and goals. Giving us an easy to use, free (as in freedom) operating system. Since the onset of this project and my adoption of ubuntu in 2006/7, I haven't really given much thought to how they would accomplish this, i still haven't. I believe in to use the right tool for the job, and if that tool doesn't exist, then you make it. so the things ubuntu has done of late have more or less gelled with my own personal beliefs, and they have not abandoned their goals or philosophy. I do have my criticism of Ubunut, as i originally didn't care much for Unity, but after seeing what it can do on my tablet, and how much changes are happening with it on the desktop as well, my initial assessment of it has changed, its not horrible as it was, and its quickly moving towards becoming my daily driver.

I will also have to stress, I personally find this internal drama in the ecosystem that we are constantly being bombarded with. Is far more damaging to linux, than anything Ubuntu could ever do. A lot of the that is, we simply don't have any leadership in FOSS, well, strong leadership. 

Look at the creator of the kernel, there are several videos up on his youtube and tons of articles written in poor taste, about how he said "F* you nvidia", when he should've called for the community to lay pressure on nvidia to be more cooperative and open about their drivers. even if it was said jokingly, the negativity of that statement alone sent a ripple of hate mongering thru out the linux ecosystem, and every elitist nitwit with a blog had something bad to say about nvidia after that, even when before they prolly had no real opinion on the subject.

Then you have stallman, who looks like the guy i gave my last dollar to at 7-11 the other night, when given a chance, will remind you how he created GNU and linux should really be GNU/Linux, that its a GNU OS using a linux kernel. i do believe in giving credit, where credit is due, but not when it boils down to semantics.

We need strong leadership, if this is a community, the "leaders" we have now, only seem to further divide us. Shuttleworth is no exception, I think he is a fine leader, but only for ubuntu. In times like these a leader should unite us behind the decisions.

So in conclusion, this a divide the only weakens Linux. Some support the decision to make linux a viable desktop, where others say they support, but get their panties all in a twist when people try to fix the problems, then you got those ones "CLI is all i need". right now there simply isn't enough information out there, to form a concise opinion on what ubuntu is doing. Mir isn't done, neither is weyland, and xorg, well, it works for now. Its a race i guess.

I think I broke the plus rep button for you as it doesn't seem to be there. biggrin.gif

Yeah...Linus and Stallman don't even get along IIRC so I think the problem is that we have a bunch of people unwilling to compromise in charge of their own little thing and it seems at least from the portrayal by the blogs and news that they can't seem to really see the good in each other's work and combine those good things(hell, people still malign PulseAudio). I think there is in some ways like in every other area...the ego driven and less/no longer contributory people are the ones that get the attention while some unknown(s) actually go out and make things happen. I'm not saying that Linus, Stallman, etc. didn't contribute a huge amount in their own way...I think they just become attached to wanting people to remember that they are doing/had done something great. They're people after all and this is just something that everyone has inside them...so I can't fault them for it. What we should as Linux users fault them for and get them to do is swallow their pride for a moment and listen to others no matter how stupid or antagonist their point of view.

And I whole heartedly agree with that view of Linus vs Nvidia you mentioned. I may have chuckled but then I remembered that Nvidia continues to shoot itself in the foot with the limited support to the community for it's Tegra line (CompuLab could have a pretty kicking Tegra2 unit except getting the GPU to work fully was pretty much "do it yourself") along with it's whole ambiguous and seemingly unhelpful "not interested in supporting" attitude towards anything that will come after xorg is gone and can't help but feel that's simply because they don't respect the community which may be in response to a lack of respect given. We need to have people in the community that can facilitate or help attract the devs, businesses, and then consumers. We need people who don't chew out someone on their first bug report if they did something wrong in reporting or what not. We need more logic and less ego/emotional responses (so does the world as we are all fallible).

There is so much that can be done with Linux but it is being lost in the egos. I can see the viability of many of the approaches from something like the CLI to a GUI like Unity...and I want to try them out and experience them. But I'm a person who can't understand code well...who fails trying to get Gentoo working...who just sometimes wants something to work and not have to know why right away...who wants freedom of choice and sometimes...that means not having the freedom of the source code (proprietary drivers). Linux seemed to be about choice when I started 3 years ago...maybe we should focus more on that?

PS: I'm pretty sure this is horribly written. redface.gif I just think instead of fear mongering or the claiming that one way is the absolute best way...we should look at comparative advantages of methods as well or how to make the best of what we have...even if that means remaking the wheel on occasion.
     
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post #30 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transhour View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

One of the issues, it's why Trashour said what he said, is the diversity. 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FateousMaximous View Post

Take a look at Canonical's track record with Unity, they made it difficult to use on any other distro, so assuming they continue to operate the same way Mir will be fairly difficult to get working on any other distro. Meaning that if Valve makes a game for Ubuntu it doesn't work for any other distro, and the reason why Valve picked Ubuntu is because it's the most Windows like Linux Distro. So where is this line you said you were going to draw? Because they are purposely forcing devs to make things for only their distro over others.

You might think that diversity is an issue, but I personally think that is is one of Linux's strengths (aka choice). You can choose to use what you want and have an OS your way, instead of being stuck with how someone else thinks your OS should be.

Since i've been brought up smile.gif, you know speak of the devil and all, I will try to expand on what i've previous said, and what mushroom is referring to (as it came from a instant message conversation).
Quote:
We are at a turning point atm in the development of linux, where the things that make it great are also the same things that in end keep us divided.


Reading thru this thread, some have obviously misunderstood what i meant here, or only read part of it and instantly hit their "berzerk" button, and have responded before thinking about it.

To address some of the things that have been said, Yes we are at a turning point in linux development. this is not some sort of lame ass attempt to claim "year of the linux desktop" or any other foolish thing. the turning point is replacement of xorg, the divide is caused by what many will attribute to linux greatness, choice.

Ubuntu, the undeniable, most popular by a great margin distro out there, has literally said they don't care about the linux "ecosystem" (but do you blame them? this supposed community shun's them every chance they get). they have announced that they are developing their own display server, cause xorg nor weyland meets their requirements.

The rest of the "community", will either stick with xorg cause they believe nothing is wrong with it, and others will adopt weyland/weston cause they do believe something is wrong with xorg or they will do it out of spite, to fanwank the haters of ubuntu.

^ so there you have it, linux/OSS greatest strengths, turns into its greatest weakness. you will now have the 3 camps, spouting off at the mouthpiece why their decision is the best. this will go on for several years, but developers will flock to the most popular, where their application, will see the most acceptance...

Now i haven't been asked here this, but i have been asked by several colleagues of mine, do i agree with canonical's decision?

This is a tough one to answer, cause i fully support Ubuntu's stated philosophy and goals. Giving us an easy to use, free (as in freedom) operating system. Since the onset of this project and my adoption of ubuntu in 2006/7, I haven't really given much thought to how they would accomplish this, i still haven't. I believe in to use the right tool for the job, and if that tool doesn't exist, then you make it. so the things ubuntu has done of late have more or less gelled with my own personal beliefs, and they have not abandoned their goals or philosophy. I do have my criticism of Ubunut, as i originally didn't care much for Unity, but after seeing what it can do on my tablet, and how much changes are happening with it on the desktop as well, my initial assessment of it has changed, its not horrible as it was, and its quickly moving towards becoming my daily driver.

I will also have to stress, I personally find this internal drama in the ecosystem that we are constantly being bombarded with. Is far more damaging to linux, than anything Ubuntu could ever do. A lot of the that is, we simply don't have any leadership in FOSS, well, strong leadership. 

Look at the creator of the kernel, there are several videos up on his youtube and tons of articles written in poor taste, about how he said "F* you nvidia", when he should've called for the community to lay pressure on nvidia to be more cooperative and open about their drivers. even if it was said jokingly, the negativity of that statement alone sent a ripple of hate mongering thru out the linux ecosystem, and every elitist nitwit with a blog had something bad to say about nvidia after that, even when before they prolly had no real opinion on the subject.

Then you have stallman, who looks like the guy i gave my last dollar to at 7-11 the other night, when given a chance, will remind you how he created GNU and linux should really be GNU/Linux, that its a GNU OS using a linux kernel. i do believe in giving credit, where credit is due, but not when it boils down to semantics.

We need strong leadership, if this is a community, the "leaders" we have now, only seem to further divide us. Shuttleworth is no exception, I think he is a fine leader, but only for ubuntu. In times like these a leader should unite us behind the decisions.

So in conclusion, this a divide the only weakens Linux. Some support the decision to make linux a viable desktop, where others say they support, but get their panties all in a twist when people try to fix the problems, then you got those ones "CLI is all i need". right now there simply isn't enough information out there, to form a concise opinion on what ubuntu is doing. Mir isn't done, neither is weyland, and xorg, well, it works for now. Its a race i guess.

Well I agree with most of your points, I disagree on mir. Choice is great, FOSS is great, it empowers users to a level beyond all other software. But the whole "great power/great responsibility" thing applies. Ubuntu has a large user base, they are standard for many things, and well I dislike the distro in general in the past they've done some very large things for linux, making it more accessible for everyone. But when you have that much sway over everyone, even unrelated to your project, you need to make smart choices about what you do. Unity, not a big deal. Who cares. Amazon web search in dash?!? that's a HUGE deal. One of the things I liked the best about Linux when I first used it was the total lack of interference with my life- no 'upgrade to windows 7' to need for virus protection, no spam, just a straight forward, simple OS that does what you want and doesn't get in the way. almost every Linux distro followed that for years. Then Ubuntu openly spits in the face of one of the best things about open source (the minimized commercialism). But ya know, fine. I'll give mint disks to family and friends, doesn't effect the rest of the world. Then, mir. They, out of everyone, really had the power to bring x to an end (if we're going to consider that a good thing now, time will tell). they lead along everyone to think 'yes, waylands the future' wayland, which already has almost ALL of the xorg devs working on it, which is already at least in part working. I smart choice would have been to get dirty and finish porting unity to weston or compiz to wayland. Instead, they had a NIH spaz. Now, the power of FOSS and the large user base they held has been used to drive a splinter though the future of the desktop. screw race. this is a death match where x lives for 5-7 more years and winner comes out missing an arm/program support. screw Linus dropping the f-bomb on nividia, because Ubuntu basically did the same thing to entire rest of the *nix community. Sure, it's there distro, they *can* do what they want. but considering Debian, the GNU, Linux,, etc. are the reason they even exist the least they could do is not mess with everybody else. Have they even tried to port Unity to wayland? not really. They set the compiz guy on it before he quit, then said, "ya know what, I think we could reinvent this in a way that might be better, even though we have no existing code, and ya know what? the rest of those Linux distros can go to hell, use Ubuntu". The community is not shuning them and then they do this, it is the other way around, the community is shuning them because they are being complete dics.

Talking about the *nix desktop, I think it's better then it's ever been. For now. I few things are on the horizon to likely likely push that downhill from here. the major problems?

1. Ubuntu in general. every new release lately bring a total bonehead move. I can only hope the next one isn't as bad as the last one. They are, in my mind, the number 1 threat to *nix at the given moment.

2. Systemd udev, and connectedness. Currently, most thing still work without. but if projects like Arch or Fedora will continue to push it on thier users without an option back, it could become a standard. problem with that? Gnome is already considering making udev and logind a dependency. Pretty soon, like it or not, you might have to use it or suffer as the distros that don't use it have version lags and smaller repos. this also, causes a large amount of dependency and connectedness. gnome talks to logind, talks to systemd talks to udev. pretty soon not just one, but a whole host of thing you might not want could have a "you take it all or you take none" sticker.

sorry for the monologue/rant/ubuntu hate speech, but really every time they say "something new is coming" I go "$h*t."
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