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post #141 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

My guess is, is to keep it consistent with all the other tests in the series. They're all using the same drivers.

In doing so, they have left aside in the curb the vast majority of AMD's work to improve stuttering redface.gif

Which comes in Cat 13.3b

My take on the subject is.. If one frame is twice, the other is half, the next is twice, and so on... Why is the effective measured framerate double? It should be the same!
Edited by Artikbot - 4/8/13 at 12:06am
   
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post #142 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post



They use an example that's less extreme than some of the real world cases that PCPer has been showing but the basic idea is the same, alternating fast and slow frames resulting in very fast runt frames. AMD of course does not use the word runt since it's an NVidia term but still, the point is the same.

The mere fact that they're releasing the driver options later this year to fix the issue should tell you that they are aware of the issues and have acknowledged them.

More here: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6857/amd-stuttering-issues-driver-roadmap-fraps/6
That is latency issues, not runt frames, that pattern is the one FRAPS displays... they talked about releasing a driver for latency issues when Techreports article got alot of buzz in December and January - i think they acknowledged the issue in January before the Titan launched which was the first time Pcper published their article. To my knowledge, I have yet to see an artcle where AMD knowledge PCpers data or any of the runt/dropped frame data, people get it confused with the FRAPS latency issues when this ones is totally different.

the fact that they are releasing a driver is to fix the issue Techreport exposed, not the one PCper claims exists.
Edited by th3illusiveman - 4/8/13 at 1:09am
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post #143 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by th3illusiveman View Post

That is latency issues, not runt frames, that pattern is the one FRAPS displays... they talked about releasing a driver for latency issues when Techreports article got alot of buzz in December and January - i think they acknowledged the issue in January before the Titan launched which was the first time Pcper published their article. To my knowledge, I have yet to see an artcle where AMD knowledge PCpers data or any of the runt/dropped frame data, people get it confused with the FRAPS latency issues when this ones is totally different.

the fact that they are releasing a driver is to fix the issue Techreport exposed, not the one PCper claims exists.

actually, that variation causes many dropped and runt frames
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/fcat_benchmarking_review,8.html

Edited by Ha-Nocri - 4/8/13 at 1:17am
post #144 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

In doing so, they have left aside in the curb the vast majority of AMD's work to improve stuttering redface.gif

Which comes in Cat 13.3b

Tech Report tested with 13.3B2 and they found similar results. Actually, Skyrim, which I think was one of the ones that they were supposed to have fixed in 13.3 (if I remember right) looked good in Fraps, but still looked pretty bad in FCAT. So it doesn't appear that 13.3 fixed everything (unless those fixes were in 13.3B3, maybe).



Quote:
Originally Posted by th3illusiveman View Post

That is latency issues, not runt frames, that pattern is the one FRAPS displays... they talked about releasing a driver for latency issues when Techreports article got alot of buzz in December and January - i think they acknowledged the issue in January before the Titan launched which was the first time Pcper published their article. To my knowledge, I have yet to see an artcle where AMD knowledge PCpers data or any of the runt/dropped frame data, people get it confused with the FRAPS latency issues when this ones is totally different.

They are basically the same issue - the runt frames are a symptom of problems with frame timing (or frame latency, depending on your terminology). You have a long frame (or a normal frame, if you want to call it that) and then a short frame - if the short frame is short enough, then it is considered a runt frame.
Edited by Forceman - 4/8/13 at 1:25am
post #145 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by th3illusiveman View Post

That is latency issues, not runt frames, that pattern is the one FRAPS displays... they talked about releasing a driver for latency issues when Techreports article got alot of buzz in December and January - i think they acknowledged the issue in January before the Titan launched which was the first time Pcper published their article. To my knowledge, I have yet to see an artcle where AMD knowledge PCpers data or any of the runt/dropped frame data, people get it confused with the FRAPS latency issues when this ones is totally different.

the fact that they are releasing a driver is to fix the issue Techreport exposed, not the one PCper claims exists.

What?

That slide was about frame times. AMD specifically doesn't have latency issues, they have issues with erratic frame times. Their crossfire implementation is the way it is because they wanted to go for the lowest possible latency which means as little input lag as possible.

What that slide is showing you is AMD acknowledging that their crossfire setups sometimes output frames so that they alternate between very long and very short frame times. This results in the runt frames that PCPer has been talking about, the graph in the slide is just simplified for easier reading, it's still your basic frame time graph.

As they say in the slide this can be somewhat solved by adding extra latency.
 
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post #146 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

What?

That slide was about frame times. AMD specifically doesn't have latency issues, they have issues with erratic frame times. Their crossfire implementation is the way it is because they wanted to go for the lowest possible latency which means as little input lag as possible.

What that slide is showing you is AMD acknowledging that their crossfire setups sometimes output frames so that they alternate between very long and very short frame times. This results in the runt frames that PCPer has been talking about, the graph in the slide is just simplified for easier reading, it's still your basic frame time graph.

As they say in the slide this can be somewhat solved by adding extra latency.
i mean frametime tongue.gif anyways what i was saying is that the chart image you linked shows what techreport talked about which was uneven consistency is frame time delivery. It is not the same as runt frames because runt frames are none existent frame times (0ms). That chart shows uneven frametime delivery but it is delivering frametimes and there are no 0ms ones there like PCper claims crossfire throws out in most of their games.

Fraps and FCAT are not the same, it's been shown there are massive differences in the data they both display with only FCAT claiming that AMD throws in a fake frametime for every illegitimate one which should in all honesty be increadibly obvious to anyone using the system that adding the second card produced no tangible benefits... even [H]OCP a website that has been nothing but critical about AMD since the 7000 series launched actually notice a difference when adding a second card and bump up the resolution and settings until it appears smooth to them. They would be one of the first ones to blow the whistle on AMD if CFX was a placebo effect because user experience is a massive part of their reviews and they constantly gripe about which setup feels smoother than the other with various settings.
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post #147 of 182
A runt frame is not a frame with a 0ms frame time, it is a frame that is only one screen for a short time (20 scanlines or 25% of the previous frame, by default). Runt frames are a symptom of extremely uneven frame time delivery.

And HardOCP has been saying for ages that Crossfire is not as smooth as SLI, which is another symptom of uneven frame delivery.
Edited by Forceman - 4/8/13 at 2:22am
post #148 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

-snip-


- snip -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

A runt frame is not a frame with a 0ms frame time, it is a frame that is only one screen for a short time (20 scanlines or 25% of the previous frame, by default). Runt frames are a symptom of extremely uneven frame time delivery.
so what would you call the frametimes in the 7950 image you posted?
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post #149 of 182
A big problem for AMD? smile.gif

Seriously, though, they are near-zero but not zero - is that what you meant? Although I don't see what difference it makes - three different websites have found the same issue, which is visible even without the overlay, using two different overlay tools. The existence of the short frames really isn't in dispute. Their impact is what should be being discussed, not their existence.
Edited by Forceman - 4/8/13 at 2:41am
post #150 of 182
Me thinks runt frame appears when frame after comes too fast and is not dropped, but I am not sure. So if frames are arriving after equal periods they will be displayed equally long making game-play smooth
Edited by Ha-Nocri - 4/8/13 at 2:43am
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