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Pentium D 925 (?) 3GHz or Q9400 for 'the backup' semi-gaming pc? - Page 3

post #21 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by savage1987 View Post

So perhaps I sell it as part of a complete system of spare parts, still cheap but clears some junk.

Current board is a P9657AA-8KS2H, doesn't look like it'll ever support the Q9400.
Cheers, I'll look into it some more. I've got a 120mm Xigmatec cooler sitting in that rig already, I hate the noise of the stock ones more than anything so I'll always use at least something cheap with a 120mm in my own systems.

Yeah no support for 1333FSB chips, but I would throw it in there just to see if it will post. Worst case it wont post and thats it, wouldnt hurt to try I dont think its going to damage anything.

It has c2q microcode so it MIGHT work.

Or you could trade/sell that 9400 (which would fetch a decent penny) and grab a q6600, probably wont be able to OC it too much on that board but its a decent chip even at stock speeds.

Spending any more than $60 US or even AUS would not be worth it to get that system running.
Edited by TheProfiteer - 4/7/13 at 8:29am
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post #22 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProfiteer View Post

Yeah no support for 1333FSB chips, but I would throw it in there just to see if it will post. Worst case it wont post and thats it, wouldnt hurt to try I dont think its going to damage anything.

It has c2q microcode so it MIGHT work.

Or you could trade/sell that 9400 (which would fetch a decent penny) and grab a q6600, probably wont be able to OC it too much on that board but its a decent chip even at stock speeds.

Spending any more than $60 US or even AUS would not be worth it to get that system running.
I did try it, didn't work.

Also, thanks for putting things in perspective. For that hp/$ reasoning I was just second guessing the DDR3 idea. $40pp for a DDR2 board, on the other hand, might be just worth doing.
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post #23 of 43
OP your better off getting a good mobo for it instead of one that has DDR3.
First off DDR3 will do nothing for you. Why people are insisting that you must have ddr3 is beyond me. Don't forget the Memory controller is on the Northbridge itself and you have to communicate through the FSB to access it. The FSB on 775 was the biggest bottleneck, DDR3 will give you no gains but the connivance of using DDR3.

If your looking for a pure Overclock go for a P45 board, they overclock the best. If you see any EP45-UD3P boards or equivalent, those higher end p45 gigabyte boards are the best boards you can get to overclock on that platform.
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post #24 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

OP your better off getting a good mobo for it instead of one that has DDR3.
First off DDR3 will do nothing for you. Why people are insisting that you must have ddr3 is beyond me.

Because he is a gamer, and because DDR3 versus DDR2 memory directly translates to more FPS in modern games, especially if one is playing 1920X1080 and ULTRA seetings. Ofc, DDR3 will do nothing for you if you play Pacman at 1024X768. In that case, I will lend you my Pentium 4 from 2002.

Here's the effect that faster memory will have on one's FPS in a modern game:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arxontas 
I have been experimenting with QX 9650 and Star Wars: The Old Republic at full ultra settings. Overclocking is immensely fun to me, and I enjoy it almost as much as I enjoy games.

Game: Star Wars: The Old Republic
Graphics Settings: ULTRA
Resolution: 1920X1080

CPU: Intel Core 2 QX 9650 Extreme (Yorkfield)
GPU: Gigabyte Nividia GTX 580 SOC (factory overclocked to 855 MHz clock & 2052 MHz mem clock)
Board: ASUS P5Q Deluxe (Intel P45 Express Chipset)
RAM: 4X1GB DDR2 Kingston Hyper X ,1066 MHz

FPS IS HARD-CAPPED AT 60


Software: Fraps

Method: Benchmarked two times a route taken by an automatic vehicle the game offers to travel between two specific points.

Results:
========
3.93 GHz (10X393), Memory 988 MHz, tRD setting: 10
2013-03-30 13:20:42 - swtor
Frames: 5507 - Time: 112539ms - Avg: 48.934 - Min: 30 - Max: 61
Bus Speed: 395MHz, Rated FSB 1580 MHz


3.93 GHz (10X393), Memory 988 MHz, tRD setting: 7
2013-03-30 13:17:38 - swtor
Frames: 5790 - Time: 110745ms - Avg: 52.282 - Min: 37 - Max: 61
Bus Speed: 395MHz, Rated FSB 1580 MHz
=====================================================================================

3.906 GHz (9X434), Memory 1088 MHz, tRD setting: 7
2013-04-01 11:08:02 - swtor
Frames: 6701 - Time: 118795ms - Avg: 56.408 - Min: 37 - Max: 61
Bus Speed: 434MHz, Rated FSB 1736.1 MHz

3.902 GHz 8.5X459, Memory 1102 MHz, tRD setting: 8
2013-04-01 12:41:41 - swtor
Frames: 6684 - Time: 116486ms - Avg: 57.380 - Min: 37 - Max: 61
Bus Speed: 459MHz, Rated FSB 1836.1 MHz

Debrief:

1. Reducing the tRD setting from 10 to 7, increased the minimum FPS rendered by 7, and the average FPS rendered by an additional 3,348, with NO change whatsoever in CPU or BUS speed.

2. Overclocking the memory from 988 to 1088 MHz and the Bus speed from 395 to 434, resulted in a net gain of an additional 4,126 FPS average at 2MHz LESS CPU speed.

3. Overclocking the memory from 1088 to 1102 MHz and the Bus speed from 434 to 459, resulted in a net gain of an additional 1 FPS average at the same CPU speed.

-Will +7 MINIMUM FPS make a difference in a game at full ULTRA settings? Most definitely yes.
-Will an additional +8-9 AVERAGE FPS make a difference in a game at full ULTRA settings? Most definitely yes.
[/unquote]
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post #25 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arxontas View Post

Because he is a gamer, and because DDR3 versus DDR2 memory directly translates to more FPS in modern games, especially if one is playing 1920X1080 and ULTRA seetings. Ofc, DDR3 will do nothing for you if you play Pacman at 1024X768. In that case, I will lend you my Pentium 4 from 2002.

Here's the effect that faster memory will have on one's FPS in a modern game:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arxontas 
I have been experimenting with QX 9650 and Star Wars: The Old Republic at full ultra settings. Overclocking is immensely fun to me, and I enjoy it almost as much as I enjoy games.

Game: Star Wars: The Old Republic
Graphics Settings: ULTRA
Resolution: 1920X1080

CPU: Intel Core 2 QX 9650 Extreme (Yorkfield)
GPU: Gigabyte Nividia GTX 580 SOC (factory overclocked to 855 MHz clock & 2052 MHz mem clock)
Board: ASUS P5Q Deluxe (Intel P45 Express Chipset)
RAM: 4X1GB DDR2 Kingston Hyper X ,1066 MHz

FPS IS HARD-CAPPED AT 60


Software: Fraps

Method: Benchmarked two times a route taken by an automatic vehicle the game offers to travel between two specific points.

Results:
========
3.93 GHz (10X393), Memory 988 MHz, tRD setting: 10
2013-03-30 13:20:42 - swtor
Frames: 5507 - Time: 112539ms - Avg: 48.934 - Min: 30 - Max: 61
Bus Speed: 395MHz, Rated FSB 1580 MHz


3.93 GHz (10X393), Memory 988 MHz, tRD setting: 7
2013-03-30 13:17:38 - swtor
Frames: 5790 - Time: 110745ms - Avg: 52.282 - Min: 37 - Max: 61
Bus Speed: 395MHz, Rated FSB 1580 MHz
=====================================================================================

3.906 GHz (9X434), Memory 1088 MHz, tRD setting: 7
2013-04-01 11:08:02 - swtor
Frames: 6701 - Time: 118795ms - Avg: 56.408 - Min: 37 - Max: 61
Bus Speed: 434MHz, Rated FSB 1736.1 MHz

3.902 GHz 8.5X459, Memory 1102 MHz, tRD setting: 8
2013-04-01 12:41:41 - swtor
Frames: 6684 - Time: 116486ms - Avg: 57.380 - Min: 37 - Max: 61
Bus Speed: 459MHz, Rated FSB 1836.1 MHz

Debrief:

1. Reducing the tRD setting from 10 to 7, increased the minimum FPS rendered by 7, and the average FPS rendered by an additional 3,348, with NO change whatsoever in CPU or BUS speed.

2. Overclocking the memory from 988 to 1088 MHz and the Bus speed from 395 to 434, resulted in a net gain of an additional 4,126 FPS average at 2MHz LESS CPU speed.

3. Overclocking the memory from 1088 to 1102 MHz and the Bus speed from 434 to 459, resulted in a net gain of an additional 1 FPS average at the same CPU speed.

-Will +7 MINIMUM FPS make a difference in a game at full ULTRA settings? Most definitely yes.
-Will an additional +8-9 AVERAGE FPS make a difference in a game at full ULTRA settings? Most definitely yes.


Your doing all these changes on a single board.
The DDR2 memory controller in the p45 socket is still a stronger memory controller then the DDR3 controller in the X48 chipset, can not speak about DDR3 on p45 and wouldn't recommend it ether.
Plus with 1066mhz memory with decent timing would be more then enough.
Also Your Overclock your tRD what is giving the biggest gain, as you can see pure memory clock isn't going to do a whole lot if your increasing freq but increasing latency as well.

OP will still gain more for getting a higher OC on his CPU vs better memory performance. DDR2 board simply overclock the best
Plus DDR3 introduces more latency off the bat and while the increased clock speed makes up for it, the performance difference on your system wont be that great.
Edited by DzillaXx - 4/7/13 at 11:57am
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post #26 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

Your doing all these changes on a single board.
The DDR2 memory controller in the p45 socket is still a stronger memory controller then the DDR3 controller in the X48 chipset, can not speak about DDR3 on p45 and wouldn't recommend it ether.
Plus with 1066mhz memory with decent timing would be more then enough.
Also Your Overclock your tRD what is giving the biggest gain, as you can see pure memory clock isn't going to do a whole lot if your increasing freq but increasing latency as well.

OP will still gain more for getting a higher OC on his CPU vs better memory performance. DDR2 board simply overclock the best
Plus DDR3 introduces more latency off the bat and while the increased clock speed makes up for it, the performance difference on your system wont be that great.

...

The X48/DDR3 combo is noticeably faster FPS wise. The difference in read speed between DDR2 and DDR3 is as great as 4000 MB/sec! This is rather huge.

In addition, X48 boards have got the option to run at a tRD setting of (6) at 450 MHz Bus Speed, the ONLY socket 775 board that can do so at this Bus Speed. This results in latencies as low as 40 NS or lower.

THIS HAS BEEN PROVEN BY ANANDTECH IN THEIR REVIEW OF ASUS ROG X48 RAMPAGE EXTREME.

Arguing that DDR2 P45 is equally fast with X48 DDR3 at 1600MHz+ only makes you look ignorant. We are NOT theorizing here. All this has been proven definitely by ANANDTECH and the bench results are on their site in the above review.

Going X48 DDR3 1800 MHz with my CPU would give me at least +5 FPS minimum (i.e. from 37 to 42 minimum FPS) and as much as 7-8 AVERAGE FPS, not to mention the difference that a latency of 40NS or less would do, since now my DDR2 cannot run lower than 58NS latency at maximum overclock.

All the above is not much important if you game at mid settings, but it becomes very important at ULTRA settings and 1920X1080.
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QX 9650: Retired
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post #27 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arxontas View Post

...

The X48/DDR3 combo is noticeably faster FPS wise. The difference in read speed between DDR2 and DDR3 is as great as 4000 MB/sec! This is rather huge.

In addition, X48 boards have got the option to run at a tRD setting of (6) at 450 MHz Bus Speed, the ONLY socket 775 board that can do so at this Bus Speed. This results in latencies as low as 40 NS or lower.

THIS HAS BEEN PROVEN BY ANANDTECH IN THEIR REVIEW OF ASUS ROG X48 RAMPAGE EXTREME.

Arguing that DDR2 P45 is equally fast with X48 DDR3 at 1600MHz+ only makes you look ignorant. We are NOT theorizing here. All this has been proven definitely by ANANDTECH and the bench results are on their site in the above review.

Going X48 DDR3 1800 MHz with my CPU would give me at least +5 FPS minimum (i.e. from 37 to 42 minimum FPS) and as much as 7-8 AVERAGE FPS, not to mention the difference that a latency of 40NS or less would do, since now my DDR2 cannot run lower than 58NS latency at maximum overclock.

All the above is not much important if you game at mid settings, but it becomes very important at ULTRA settings and 1920X1080.

Your Overlooking the FSB and MCH bottlenecks.
In no way shape or form can the x48 chipset run ddr3 1800mhz at its full level. Hell I would even go as for to say that getting it stable at that speed would be chore on its own.

First off you need to Know MCH limitations, cause if you think that 1066mhz ddr2 runs the same on a 780i board as it does on a p45 board then you would be wrong. Having owned both I can tell you that the p45 has a stronger Memory controller. Same speed and Setting the P45 will come out on top in pure memory benchmarks, all MCH are not the same. Same reason why a socket 1155 chip with only dual channel will put up memory benchmarks like my tri channel setup. x48 doesnt overclock as well as p45 and avoid any 775 Nvidia board like a plague.

As you can see from my HTPC sig rig I also have a Q9550 +ud3p board. While my 1150 Reaper sticks may have spoiled me ( can also do 1200mhz @ 6-6-6-18 or 1000mhz @ 4-4-4-12 ), getting DDR3 will still be pointless if its going to cost more to get it or has to sacrifice CPU overclocking ability.

sticking 1800mhz ddr3 into your system will not give you a gain like you are thinking. It would be like me sticking 2100mhz ddr3 into my system, aka total waste for X58.


Not staying DDR3 can't benefit 775 because it can, just that it is not worth it. x48 was designed for old lower speed DDR3, p45 is capible of handling high class DDR2. Higher Class DDR2 is faster then lower Class DDR3. While Current DDR3 memory is a lot better now, The built-in DDR3 controller in x48 was never really designed to go past 1333mhz ddr3.
Edited by DzillaXx - 4/7/13 at 1:21pm
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post #28 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr/owned View Post

I recall Pentium D's being pretty crappy. Basically 2 single core cpu's glued together so they never really worked together very well.

Two Pentium 4's to be exact.
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post #29 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

Your Overlooking the FSB and MCH bottlenecks.
In no way shape or form can the x48 chipset run ddr3 1800mhz at its full level. Hell I would even go as for to say that getting it stable at that speed would be chore on its own.

First off you need to Know MCH limitations, cause if you think that 1066mhz ddr2 runs the same on a 780i board as it does on a p45 board then you would be wrong. Having owned both I can tell you that the p45 has a stronger Memory controller. Same speed and Setting the P45 will come out on top in pure memory benchmarks, all MCH are not the same. Same reason why a socket 1155 chip with only dual channel will put up memory benchmarks like my tri channel setup. x48 doesnt overclock as well as p45 and avoid any 775 Nvidia board like a plague.

As you can see from my HTPC sig rig I also have a Q9550 +ud3p board. While my 1150 Reaper sticks may have spoiled me ( can also do 1200mhz @ 6-6-6-18 or 1000mhz @ 4-4-4-12 ), getting DDR3 will still be pointless if its going to cost more to get it or has to sacrifice CPU overclocking ability.

sticking 1800mhz ddr3 into your system will not give you a gain like you are thinking. It would be like me sticking 2100mhz ddr3 into my system, aka total waste for X58.


Not staying DDR3 can't benefit 775 because it can, just that it is not worth it. x48 was designed for old lower speed DDR3, p45 is capible of handling high class DDR2. Higher Class DDR2 is faster then lower Class DDR3. While Current DDR3 memory is a lot better now, The built-in DDR3 controller in x48 was never really designed to go past 1333mhz ddr3.

Sigh, though I did honestly try to make sense of what you write, I admit that I couldn't. You have got many things mixed up inside your head and you also have got several key concepts wrong.

Let me repeat the basics:

1. DDR3 is faster than DDR2. It offers Lower latency and higher read speeds.
2. ASUS Maximus Extreme X48 can and has run at speeds DDR3 1800 MHz, as noted here: http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/MAXIMUS_EXTREME/
3. P45 is not faster than a X-48.
4. X48/DDR3 combo offers better FPS than P45/DDR2 combo scaling as the resolution and eye candy goes up.

Further discussion is pointless.
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post #30 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arxontas View Post

Sigh, though I did honestly try to make sense of what you write, I admit that I couldn't. You have got many things mixed up inside your head and you also have got several key concepts wrong.

Let me repeat the basics:

1. DDR3 is faster than DDR2. It offers Lower latency and higher read speeds.
2. ASUS Maximus Extreme X48 can and has run at speeds DDR3 1800 MHz, as noted here: http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/MAXIMUS_EXTREME/
3. P45 is not faster than a X-48.
4. X48/DDR3 combo offers better FPS than P45/DDR2 combo scaling as the resolution and eye candy goes up.

Further discussion is pointless.

DDR3 does not offer lower latency, faster frequencies but much higher latency.
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