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post #21 of 60
why do game developers feel entitled to get rights that no other industry get's when it come to used goods? this even applies to other forms of media, ie used books and movies. people have a right to resell their purchased property and it's not unreasonable that they should have this right. piracy is one thing, but the issue of resale is something every industry has to deal with it. so deal with it and stop crying and get an easier job if it's too hard for you developers. it's not like their isn't plenty of money to be made in the industry as is /endthread
Edited by perfectblade - 4/16/13 at 1:29pm
post #22 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectblade View Post

why do game developers feel entitled to get rights that no other industry get's when it come to used goods? this even applies to other forms of media, ie used books and movies. people have a right to resell their purchased property and it's not unreasonable that they should have this right. piracy is one thing, but the issue of resale is something every industry has to deal with it. so deal with it and stop crying and get an easier job if it's too hard for you developers. it's not like their isn't plenty of money to be made in the industry as is /endthread

One word ... "Bribes" ... er sorry, "Campaign Contributions".
post #23 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectblade View Post

why do game developers feel entitled to get rights that no other industry get's when it come to used goods? this even applies to other forms of media, ie used books and movies. people have a right to resell their purchased property and it's not unreasonable that they should have this right. piracy is one thing, but the issue of resale is something every industry has to deal with it. so deal with it and stop crying and get an easier job if it's too hard for you developers. it's not like their isn't plenty of money to be made in the industry as is /endthread
Compare the profit-per-copy of a book to that of a game. Also, how's it going selling those ebooks?
Compare the majority of a movie's revenue coming from ticket sales, not copies sold, to games exclusively coming from copies sold.

No, it's not unreasonable for people to have the ability to resell their games, but the only way that works without hurting the market is if there is incentives to buy a new game over a used one or publishers get a share of the used sales. As is, from the development side, piracy and used games are almost indistinguishable.

And really, stop pointing at developers, it's the publisher level that makes the active decisions about this stuff.
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post #24 of 60
They could do a tier service, downloaded games come first and get released later as physical copies. Essentially copying the movie industry, not an exact copy but a similar model. I wouldn't be incredibly upset if they tied a game to a console. Just as long as they don't make consoles online only, that is a disaster waiting to happen.
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post #25 of 60
mushroomboy is on a roll today.
post #26 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

Compare the profit-per-copy of a book to that of a game. Also, how's it going selling those ebooks?
Compare the majority of a movie's revenue coming from ticket sales, not copies sold, to games exclusively coming from copies sold.

No, it's not unreasonable for people to have the ability to resell their games, but the only way that works without hurting the market is if there is incentives to buy a new game over a used one or publishers get a share of the used sales. As is, from the development side, piracy and used games are almost indistinguishable.

And really, stop pointing at developers, it's the publisher level that makes the active decisions about this stuff.

i mean ebook sales are doing pretty well, at least amazon is doing well. the stupid thing is, with digital copies in that instance you also basically do not own the product. BUT if the game industry is fine with cutting the prices of digital games in exchange for preventing resale, i'd be ok with it. i feel better about spending $6 for an ebook than $60 for a game i don't own. sure movies have ticket sales, but the budget for blockbusters is higher than with many games, and the dvds and retail copies go for a fraction of $60.

i think my position is fair. i support drm that is not overly intrusive, but i still think people should own what they buy. it's the same deal the movie industry gets
Edited by perfectblade - 4/16/13 at 5:35pm
post #27 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

The reality is successful single-player games are the exception, not the rule. Going for a great game is more likely to fail than going for a good game, and good games lose more sales to used games than great games do. It's a choice between high risk high reward or low risk with ways to get medium reward.

Trust me when I say developers want to put out good single player games, I myself have a half dozen design documents written and fairly fleshed out that just aren't suited for the current market because new IPs are a huge risk and single player focused is also a huge risk so investors won't bite. I'd take one or two to Kickstarter, but I don't have the resume to get the inspire the backing I'd need to do them right.

As I talked about in another thread, major publishers giving indi studios a working budget but freedom at the cost of IP rights would be a huge step forward, where games that are trying to establish new markets/genres are actually given the visibility and quality control they need to be viable attempts.

Something to add tho is that, when Publishers started only caring about profit, they found their golden egg laying goose, which was multiplayer, as I'm quite sure developing multiplayer is far less expensive than casting, recording, writing and producing a single player game. So what happens? Well, publishers spent less money and made just as much money, meaning higher profit. Fair enough, good spending strategy.

The problem? Every publisher starts doing this, every board of directors wants more and more and more profits to get even higher than before, beyond any reasonable possibility. And what do we get? A flooding of poorly made, cheaply written, multiplayer tacked on games that flood the industry on a yearly basis, cause who cares about the long term, we have to make higher profits in the next 3 months.
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post #28 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

When I reached this comment from the author, I rolled my eyes and almost stopped reading.
Quote:
But surely, single-player gaming is dead, no matter how passionate a developer is.

Then the retard goes on to say ...
Quote:
A quality solo experience can be achieved with dedication and resources, but often the narrative campaign has to share space with a multiplayer mode, often suggested to be crucial to any game's success these days.


Single-player gaming is NOT dead. You don't have to be multi-player to be a good game. Deal with it.

(I'm going to just say "he" for the sake of brevity, I don't know the author's gender) You completely missed what he's saying. That first line? He's basically saying "the popular opinion [in development] is that single player gaming is dead", NOT "I think single player gaming is dead"; and the rest of that paragraph that you seemingly ignored or failed to read: "Why is Dishonored surviving in the face of that stark reality? The Bethesda camp believes it's not so much reality as it is people skewing the narrative based on their own interests." is showing that the author is being neutral to the subject, writing in a manner to provoke thought.

As for your second quote, I have no idea why you're calling the author a retard. Not only is it unnecessarily rude, you're not understanding what that line means. Here's what he's saying: a good solo experience is possible with the resources, however, the popular design nowadays includes a multiplayer component as companies think it's necessary, so the solo experience suffers.

In neither of those examples, nor the rest of the article, am I seeing any evidence to show that the author believes single player gaming is actually dead, or that he believes a multiplayer component is necessary. He's reporting the current state of development. The first two paragraphs should give that away.
post #29 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

They could do a tier service, downloaded games come first and get released later as physical copies. Essentially copying the movie industry, not an exact copy but a similar model. I wouldn't be incredibly upset if they tied a game to a console. Just as long as they don't make consoles online only, that is a disaster waiting to happen.
The elimination of physical copies is the more likely route they'll take. I'd expect it at the end of the PS4/720 lifespan unless serious setbacks have stalled the spread of broadband or caps become more common. Online only consoles are a natural progression, but broadband access in America is still lagging too far behind for it to be the right choice right now, it looks like both major consoles will have it in some degree though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectblade View Post

i mean ebook sales are doing pretty well, at least amazon is doing well. the stupid thing is, with digital copies in that instance you also basically do not own the product. but i feel better about spending $6 for an ebook than $60 for a game a i don't own. sure movies have ticket sales, but the budget for blockbusters is higher than with many games, and the dvds and retail copies go for a fraction of $60.

i think my position is fair. i support drm that is not overly intrusive, but i still think people should own what they buy. it's the same deal the movie industry gets
Actually, most movies are in the same budget range as AAA titles ($20-50M), and some games like SWTOR and GTAIV go into the 9-digit budgets rivaling the blockbusters as well. Remember, the gaming industry has to have competitive wages because the skillset required for most of it is in high demand elsewhere (Hollywood for animators/3D artists, Wall Street/Oil companies for programmers).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boinz View Post

Something to add tho is that, when Publishers started only caring about profit, they found their golden egg laying goose, which was multiplayer, as I'm quite sure developing multiplayer is far less expensive than casting, recording, writing and producing a single player game. So what happens? Well, publishers spent less money and made just as much money, meaning higher profit. Fair enough, good spending strategy.

The problem? Every publisher starts doing this, every board of directors wants more and more and more profits to get even higher than before, beyond any reasonable possibility. And what do we get? A flooding of poorly made, cheaply written, multiplayer tacked on games that flood the industry on a yearly basis, cause who cares about the long term, we have to make higher profits in the next 3 months.
For the most part, yes. ROI on multiplayer is far higher for a few reasons, multiplayer sells DLC better, multiplayer slows used game sales so new game sales drop off slower, and word of mouth works better with multiplayer games.

The reason this "problem" persists is that the market isn't actively trying to correct it. The top selling single-player games like Bioshock Infinite and Skyrim don't even start to approach the numbers of games like COD:BO or BF3 despite often being more expensive to create. Got a high-budget new IP that prototypes well? It better be multiplayer, preferably FPS, else you're going to need to make the elevator pitch of a lifetime to get a publisher to even try the prototype.
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post #30 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

The elimination of physical copies is the more likely route they'll take. I'd expect it at the end of the PS4/720 lifespan unless serious setbacks have stalled the spread of broadband or caps become more common. Online only consoles are a natural progression, but broadband access in America is still lagging too far behind for it to be the right choice right now, it looks like both major consoles will have it in some degree though.
Actually, most movies are in the same budget range as AAA titles ($20-50M), and some games like SWTOR and GTAIV go into the 9-digit budgets rivaling the blockbusters as well. Remember, the gaming industry has to have competitive wages because the skillset required for most of it is in high demand elsewhere (Hollywood for animators/3D artists, Wall Street/Oil companies for programmers).
For the most part, yes. ROI on multiplayer is far higher for a few reasons, multiplayer sells DLC better, multiplayer slows used game sales so new game sales drop off slower, and word of mouth works better with multiplayer games.

The reason this "problem" persists is that the market isn't actively trying to correct it. The top selling single-player games like Bioshock Infinite and Skyrim don't even start to approach the numbers of games like COD:BO or BF3 despite often being more expensive to create. Got a high-budget new IP that prototypes well? It better be multiplayer, preferably FPS, else you're going to need to make the elevator pitch of a lifetime to get a publisher to even try the prototype.

Might be easier to just link consoles to the game, tie in security codes. It's well known that certain security sectors on the xbox 360 are hard to burn. If you do a dash update, you have to re-burn the disc. What they could do, is keep a log. If the disc cannot contain multiple versions of the new security sectors, flag and ban. Maybe not ban the console, perm ban the game from being used. Their are numerous ways to still link a physical copy to a console. That's what I was talking about, online only and digital clients aren't exactly superb.

If you went the online only route, just copy the steam model. Make physical copies but force registration online per console. Steam is pretty good at keeping games from being illegally downloaded while offering a physical medium (note: I'm talking about the Steam client, not torrenting steam games and using an "emulator").


[errone]
Regardless, we have methods to disable the re-sale of video games if need be. I find it sad that developers feel they have to do that, considering games have been sold and traded for eons. The PC industry never showed any outrage towards that, nothing was drastically said until the console market got it's boom. I personally think that speaks about the motives of publishers.

The best answer was said in this article though, create good games. Bethesda makes good games, I don't know many people who argue against that. So my question would be, who's pushing the issue on eliminating used games. My guess, developers who pump out titles that fail pretty miserably. It's a cut throat market, has been for years. Early PC developers/publishers had to fight tooth and nail, when they released a bad project they either tried one last time or bombed out. Sometimes they got purchased by a larger company, sometimes not. It happens, it's a way of life in the entertainment business.

Remember Serious Sam? The first few in the series did well, somewhere along the line they screwed up. SS3 was horrible... I have purchased it, only because it was $10 on steam and has a linux version. To this day I haven't beaten the game, nor will I. It's awful, god awful. I wouldn't recommend buying it unless it's on sale, even then you probably don't want to purchase it anyways. Moral of the story? Bad games won't sell, period. People will either get them used, cheap, or not at all. That won't change, in the end it will come down to people buying them or not buying them.

Won't make them more money, at least not enough to justify the action. That's just consumerism at it's best.
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