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post #141 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

I'm going to stop you right there.

GRAVITY IS A THEORY

In science, there is NOTHING higher than a theory. The common use of "theory" is science's hypothesis. Evolution is far past that. It can't go any further than theory because there is nothing further.

Evolution on a small scale (ignorantly labeled "microevolution" by doubters) has been unequivocally proven. Just look at anti-bacterial resistant diseases.

Evolution between species is just small steps over a long time. Saying there is faith required to understand the most logical route is the most likely one is absurd. The difference between religion and science is that science doesn't care if you believe or not, it only matters if it's true. You don't believe in science, you either understand it or don't, either way the truth is unchanged. The core theory of evolution is that is NOT chance, accident or happenstance. Evolution follows natural selection, which is not one of those three.

You're correct, we will never be able to conclusively prove abiogenesis happened unless we develop a time machine and guess the time/place perfectly. However, we have proven abiogenesis possible by doing ~75% of it an laboratory with time being the most likely route to finishing that last 25%. However, there are numerous other theories to life on Earth such as panspermia, which, by the way, still holds that abiogenesis happened, just not on Earth.

And also, the theory of evolution and the theory of abiogenesis are two very different theories. They work independent of each other, replacing either one with a deity's intervention does not invalidate the other.

I'm going to stop you right there.

Actually there is a law of gravity AND a theory of gravity (actually there is more than one.) The law of gravity tells us how gravity affects things. The theories of gravity are explanations of why gravity affects things.

That being said, it still does nothing to help your position.

AT ALL

now run along.
Edited by ]\/[EGADET]-[ - 4/23/13 at 10:58am
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post #142 of 160
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Originally Posted by dealio View Post

LOL @ "i like turtles"
biggrin.gif http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
Ah, right. Haven't heard that phrase since high school.

But the egg came before the chicken, it just wasn't laid by what's today called a chicken. thumb.gif
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post #143 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by ]\/[EGADET]-[ View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

I'm going to stop you right there.

Actually there is a law of gravity AND a theory of gravity (actually there is more than one.) The law of gravity tells us how gravity affects things. The theories of gravity are explanations of why gravity affects things.

That being said, it still does nothing to help your position. AT ALL now run along.

Law of universal gravitation tells us nothing but the formula. The theory is everything else. There is no way to empirically state evolution, hence it can never have a law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_law

Scientific laws are not higher than scientific theory.
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post #144 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

I'm going to stop you right there.

GRAVITY IS A THEORY

In science, there is NOTHING higher than a theory. The common use of "theory" is science's hypothesis. Evolution is far past that. It can't go any further than theory because there is nothing further.

Evolution on a small scale (ignorantly labeled "microevolution" by doubters) has been unequivocally proven. Just look at anti-bacterial resistant diseases.

Evolution between species is just small steps over a long time. Saying there is faith required to understand the most logical route is the most likely one is absurd. The difference between religion and science is that science doesn't care if you believe or not, it only matters if it's true. You don't believe in science, you either understand it or don't, either way the truth is unchanged. The core theory of evolution is that is NOT chance, accident or happenstance. Evolution follows natural selection, which is not one of those three.

You're correct, we will never be able to conclusively prove abiogenesis happened unless we develop a time machine and guess the time/place perfectly. However, we have proven abiogenesis possible by doing ~75% of it an laboratory with time being the most likely route to finishing that last 25%. However, there are numerous other theories to life on Earth such as panspermia, which, by the way, still holds that abiogenesis happened, just not on Earth.

And also, the theory of evolution and the theory of abiogenesis are two very different theories. They work independent of each other, replacing either one with a deity's intervention does not invalidate the other.

HOLD ON...jusst because something is scientific theory does not make it proven or factual. Theories are still being tested and proven. They are purely hypothesis some more founded than others. Theory does not equal fact. They are in fact disproven quite often. So a theory isn not the top of the scientific chain. TRUTH is. And truth is, it is purely faith that you believe evolution as there is less evidence for it than Christianity. You are also wrong to say that science doesn't care if you believe it or not, as the opposite is quite obvious while unproven scientific theories that take faith to believe are pushing other faiths out of schools, governments, media, etc. Science does care if you believe it....ESPECIALLY when it's JUST a theory.
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post #145 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb222 View Post

HOLD ON...jusst because something is scientific theory does not make it proven or factual. Theories are still being tested and proven. They are purely hypothesis some more founded than others. Theory does not equal fact. They are in fact disproven quite often. So a theory isn not the top of the scientific chain. TRUTH is. And truth is, it is purely faith that you believe evolution as there is less evidence for it than Christianity. You are also wrong to say that science doesn't care if you believe it or not, as the opposite is quite obvious while unproven scientific theories that take faith to believe are pushing other faiths out of schools, governments, media, etc. Science does care if you believe it....ESPECIALLY when it's JUST a theory.
I'm going to say this as simply as I possibly can.

In science, there is no higher form than a theory or a law (they are equals, filling different roles). They are not frequently disproven.

Hypothesis are frequently disproven. A theory being disproven is major news and if it's of any matter of consequence, it's major news. In fact, a theory is a hypothesis that has been repeatedly tested and never failed. The only theory I can think of that's been significantly changed from a long-held position in the last decade is the theory of universal gravitation and how it applies to black holes. However, it was "disproven" because we found the point where quantum mechanics beat gravity. Previously that point was not known though it was always proposed to exist in some form.

There is overwhelming evidence of evolution being real, there is zero evidence to the contrary or to any competing possibilities. If humanity were wiped off the planet and koalas evolved into sentient beings and came to rule over the planet as we do now, they would rediscover scientific theories exactly as we have them. They would not hold the same religious "truths".

Nothing shows how little you know about science as the phrase "just a theory".
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post #146 of 160
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Originally Posted by ejb222 View Post

HOLD ON...jusst because something is scientific theory does not make it proven or factual. Theories are still being tested and proven. They are purely hypothesis some more founded than others. Theory does not equal fact. They are in fact disproven quite often. So a theory isn not the top of the scientific chain. TRUTH is. And truth is, it is purely faith that you believe evolution as there is less evidence for it than Christianity. You are also wrong to say that science doesn't care if you believe it or not, as the opposite is quite obvious while unproven scientific theories that take faith to believe are pushing other faiths out of schools, governments, media, etc. Science does care if you believe it....ESPECIALLY when it's JUST a theory.
You clearly do not know what a theory is, based on what you wrote I have a slight feeling this is a troll. A theory is an explanation of the facts.
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post #147 of 160
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Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

I'm going to say this as simply as I possibly can.

In science, there is no higher form than a theory or a law (they are equals, filling different roles). They are not frequently disproven.

Hypothesis are frequently disproven. A theory being disproven is major news and if it's of any matter of consequence, it's major news. In fact, a theory is a hypothesis that has been repeatedly tested and never failed. The only theory I can think of that's been significantly changed from a long-held position in the last decade is the theory of universal gravitation and how it applies to black holes. However, it was "disproven" because we found the point where quantum mechanics beat gravity. Previously that point was not known though it was always proposed to exist in some form.

There is overwhelming evidence of evolution being real, there is zero evidence to the contrary or to any competing possibilities. If humanity were wiped off the planet and koalas evolved into sentient beings and came to rule over the planet as we do now, they would rediscover scientific theories exactly as we have them. They would not hold the same religious "truths".

Nothing shows how little you know about science as the phrase "just a theory".

EDIT: BY THE WAY: THEORY AND LAWS ARE NOT EQUAL....this is 4th grade science
Laws are different from theories in that they are not designed to provide a causal framework in which to describe why a series of observations reliably occur but are rather merely descriptions of the observed phenomenon.

A law is something that can be measured or observed to be true. A theory is something that can only be assumed to be true based on the best available knowledge. A theory can eventually, though not necessarily, become a law after time and scrutiny.


Ok...simple you want, simple you get. Theory is literally nothing more than a well founded HYPOTHESIS. Science it always trying to either explain truth or discover truth. THEORY are these explanations. OFTEN superceded by revised theories. The very definition of THEORY would show that it is NOT the highest form of anything in Science other than hypothesis. Truth is the highest form seeing that all theories revolve around understanding or discovering Truth.
how often??? OFTEN...just in Newtonian physics alone you have a huge set of classic physics theories that have been superceded by Quantum and Relativistic Theory. Then we could list all the theories in Biology, Chemistry, etc.
Nothing shows you know so little about science as saying Theory is the highest and they dont get changed unless it's major news.
Edited by ejb222 - 4/23/13 at 12:52pm
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post #148 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb222 View Post

EDIT: BY THE WAY: THEORY AND LAWS ARE NOT EQUAL....this is 4th grade science
Laws are different from theories in that they are not designed to provide a causal framework in which to describe why a series of observations reliably occur but are rather merely descriptions of the observed phenomenon.

A law is something that can be measured or observed to be true. A theory is something that can only be assumed to be true based on the best available knowledge. A theory can eventually, though not necessarily, become a law after time and scrutiny.

Ok...simple you want, simple you get. Theory is literally nothing more than a well founded HYPOTHESIS. Science it always trying to either explain truth or discover truth. THEORY are these explanations. OFTEN superceded by revised theories. The very definition of THEORY would show that it is NOT the highest form of anything in Science other than hypothesis. Truth is the highest form seeing that all theories revolve around understanding or discovering Truth.
how often??? OFTEN...just in Newtonian physics alone you have a huge set of classic physics theories that have been superceded by Quantum and Relativistic Theory. Then we could list all the theories in Biology, Chemistry, etc.
Nothing shows you know so little about science as saying Theory is the highest and they dont get changed unless it's major news.

Sigh. There are truths that can never at any point even though unequivocally proven be scientific law. Rather than continue to debate definitions you're misremembering, I'll just leave a bit of reading from a simple google search:
http://science.kennesaw.edu/~rmatson/3380theory.html
Quote:
As used in science, I think that it is important to realize that, in spite of the differences (see below), these terms share some things in common. Both are based on tested hypotheses; both are supported by a large body of empirical data; both help unify a particular field; both are widely accepted by the vast majority (if not all) scientists within a discipline. Furthermore, both scientific laws and scientific theories could be shown to be wrong at some time if there are data to suggest so.


http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/371711main_SMII_Problem23.pdf
Quote:
Fact: A basic statement established by experiment or observation. All facts are true under specific
conditions. Some facts may be false when re-tested with better instruments.
Law: A logical relationship between two or more things that is based on a variety of facts and proven
hypothesis. It is often a mathematical statement of how two or more quantities relate to each other.
Hypothesis: A tentative statement such as ‘if A happens then B must happen’ that can be tested b y
direct experiment or observation. A proven hypothesis can be expressed as a law or a theory. A
disproven hypothesis can sometimes be re-tested and found correct as measurements improve.
Theory: An explanation for why certain laws and facts exist that can be tested to determine its
accuracy.

Belief: A statement that is not scientifically provable in the same way as facts, laws, hypotheses or
theories. Scientifically disproven beliefs can still be held to be true.

Laws are not an evolution of theory. They are separate but hold equal weight. An explanation can not become law. Theory is the ultimate form of an explanation.
Edited by -Apocalypse- - 4/23/13 at 1:18pm
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post #149 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Apocalypse- View Post

I already addressed this. For life to exist on any one planet it's almost an infinitesimal chance. But, there are nearly an infinite number of planets. Additionally, we've only ever had experience with carbon-based life. When you consider the possibility of life using different chemical structures (and therefore requiring different conditions), the chances of life elsewhere increase but the number of planets is still nearly infinite.
If this were another forum I'd piece this apart and show it as the sad commentary about humanity it is. Instead, if there is worth given to what your family built (a business, a reputation, a community ect), why would no value be given to your life, the result of billions of years of your ancestors beating the odds and surviving?
You're correct that ignorant would be the wrong word, but naive would be appropriate.
Relativistic times. Space might not bend for us, but time would and would be very willing to do so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation We have everything but the energy source needed to make it to Alpha Centari without needing a generational ship.

Many problems with your argument. For starters, you need to prove exactly what the %chance of life forming on a planet is before you know anything about how many planets contain life. Second, there isn't nearly infintie planets. There is a very finite number in this universe, and any finite number you can imagine is infinitely far away from infinity. Also you maike an assumption that life has some sort of intrinsic value. This is not the case, the universe would continue if we were here or not. Also, it is entirely possible that the % chance of life spontaneously forming is something like 10^-96, which would mean that life on our planet is a strange fluke of physics. Or, it could also be that the % chance is higher, but because of the expansion of the universe, we will never know. There is also time frames to consider; it might happen a lot, but because civilizations only last a relatively short amount of time before reaching a technological singularity/extinction, we will never see them on any human time scale. basically there are hundreds of trillions of cases, but finding other life on another planet would imply that the %chance is quite high.
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post #150 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb222 View Post


how often??? OFTEN...just in Newtonian physics alone you have a huge set of classic physics theories that have been superceded by Quantum and Relativistic Theory. Then we could list all the theories in Biology, Chemistry, etc.
Nothing shows you know so little about science as saying Theory is the highest and they dont get changed unless it's major news.

you're seriously going to argue this? um ok. well, even though newtonian physics is not perfect, it fairly accurately describes a lot of the physical phenomena you deal with everyday. quantum mechanics and relativistic theory deal with the very small and very large respectively.

and in comparison to christianity...i mean there is really no comparison to be had at all
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