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[theinquirer] AMD brought 64-bit to x86 10 years ago today - Page 5

post #41 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanlabrie View Post

but...no Monkey Island 1 frown.gif
Just dosbox it smile.gif
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post #42 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Robot View Post

Just dosbox it smile.gif

Definitely not the same feeling as the cd auto run and the cool soundtrack starting. (still got the original cd here...)
*goes to dust Syndicate Wars too...*

Back when I was a kid I was caught in the whole 8/16/32/64bit thing, before I really got hooked with computers. I remember it was quite confusing for me when I started reading about pc components and dreaming of getting a Voodoo 2 (which I finally did after begging to my dad for weeks!), later on I built my first rig by myself with a p3 600mhz/Voodoo 3 3500 agp/intel vc820/rimm pc800 ram. Ah, the good ole days! rolleyes.gif
post #43 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

If the next Windows were to be 128-bit, it would need a new architecture or a new extension to x86.

Depending on how it's implimented a hypothetical x86-128, and a Windows made for it, might be able to execute 16-bit and 32-bit code just fine. There is nothing preventing Intel/AMD/Microsoft from having fewer limitations.

However, I would not bet on a 128-bit windows for a long time; there is no need for it. We already have 128-bit and 256-bit SIMD instructions when we need them, and nothing is preventing this from expanding further, even if the basic data-word/register sizes remain 64-bit. 16-bit and 32-bit were relatively quickly superseded because their memory limitations became problematic. However, this won't be the case with 64-bit processors for some time.

^This. A processor with 32-bit memory addresses can directly access 4 GiB of byte-addressable memory. A processor with 64-bit memory addresses can directly access a whooping 2^64 bytes (=17 179 869 184 gigabytes) of byte-addressable memory. That's not going to run out for a very long time.

That's why it boggles the mind why win7 even has a 32-bit version. Its not like anyone is going to run it on 10 year old Athlon XP processor (last 32-bit desktop CPU). And vista proved that a 64-bit OS can handle legacy 32-bit software perfeclyt fine.
Edited by Bit_reaper - 4/23/13 at 4:48am
    
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post #44 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Bitness never really matter for consoles, nor was it consistently reported.
Even the ancient x87 was an 80-bit FPU, but the processors it was originally used with were 16-bit.

smile.gif I think this is happening with our CPUs too, they have 256 bit per cycle FPU but most of time they are being used as 64 bit per cycle only. Am I right ?
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post #45 of 59
I guess drivers were a major issue - most 32bit application work fine on 64bit OS, but hardware drivers are required to be 64bit.
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post #46 of 59
I wonder how many more versions of Windows are going to offer 32-bit support.
post #47 of 59
One mustn't confuse "bitness" with addressable memory. What it means is that the instructions are 64 bits long. The addressable memory is dependent on the width of the memory bus. 64 bit CPUs need not automatically be able to address 2^64 memory cells. In fact, Thuban, for example, uses 42 lanes for the memory bus IIRC and this it's 2^42 memory cells in this case.
post #48 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by crust_cheese View Post

One mustn't confuse "bitness" with addressable memory. What it means is that the instructions are 64 bits long. The addressable memory is dependent on the width of the memory bus. 64 bit CPUs need not automatically be able to address 2^64 memory cells. In fact, Thuban, for example, uses 42 lanes for the memory bus IIRC and this it's 2^42 memory cells in this case.

AFAIK AMD64 uses 48-bit bus lines, whereas Intel 64 uses 42-bit bus lines. From a software perspective, bitness is important - as virtual memory comes into play here with the theoretical addressable maximum is 2^64 with the use of 64-bit sized pointers. When speaking from a strictly hardware perspective, however, your comment is correct and confusion is indeed there.

Hopefully this can clarify a little:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_64#Virtual_address_space_details 
Although virtual addresses are 64 bits wide in 64-bit mode, current implementations (and all chips known to be in the planning stages) do not allow the entire virtual address space of 264 bytes (16 EB) to be used. Most operating systems and applications will not need such a large address space for the foreseeable future (for example, Windows implementations for AMD64 are only populating 16 TB, or 44 bits' worth), so implementing such wide virtual addresses would simply increase the complexity and cost of address translation with no real benefit. AMD therefore decided that, in the first implementations of the architecture, only the least significant 48 bits of a virtual address would actually be used in address translation (page table lookup).[1](p120) Further, bits 48 through 63 of any virtual address must be copies of bit 47 (in a manner akin to sign extension), or the processor will raise an exception.[1](p131) Addresses complying with this rule are referred to as "canonical form."[1](p130) Canonical form addresses run from 0 through 00007FFF'FFFFFFFF, and from FFFF8000'00000000 through FFFFFFFF'FFFFFFFF, for a total of 256 TB of usable virtual address space.

This "quirk" allows an important feature for later scalability to true 64-bit addressing: many operating systems (including, but not limited to, the Windows NT family) take the higher-addressed half of the address space (named kernel space) for themselves and leave the lower-addressed half (user space) for application code, user mode stacks, heaps, and other data regions. The "canonical address" design ensures that every AMD64 compliant implementation has, in effect, two memory halves: the lower half starts at 00000000'00000000 and "grows upwards" as more virtual address bits become available, while the higher half is "docked" to the top of the address space and grows downwards. Also, fixing the contents of the unused address bits prevents their use by operating system as flags, privilege markers, etc., as such use could become problematic when the architecture is extended to implement more bits of virtual addresses.
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post #49 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpykeZ View Post

And still isn't as utilized as it should be. Wonder if Intel would have done it if Amd didn't.

Itanium (as others have stated) was Intel's 64 bit architecture, and if memory serves, was superior. In fact, it's still around (they released a new chip in 2010), but it's losing the little OEM support it had. Again, as others have said, compatibility seems to be everything (even in the server market).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanlabrie View Post

Back when I was a kid I was caught in the whole 8/16/32/64bit thing, before I really got hooked with computers. I remember it was quite confusing for me when I started reading about pc components and dreaming of getting a Voodoo 2 (which I finally did after begging to my dad for weeks!), later on I built my first rig by myself with a p3 600mhz/Voodoo 3 3500 agp/intel vc820/rimm pc800 ram. Ah, the good ole days! rolleyes.gif

You bought RIMM memory? You were mugged off tongue.gif
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post #50 of 59
I wouldn't go so far as to say Itanium is superior. It was built on a lot of novel ideas that just didn't work out in practice how they were supposed to in theory. The chips have always been very large and hot while not delivering the performance initially expected. It has been speculated that Intel would rather drop the project, but HP pays them a lot of money to continue development and production.
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