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[PCper] Frame Rating: AMD Improves CrossFire with Prototype Driver - Page 23

post #221 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaughterem View Post

Ryan as I am a noob to this but trying to make heads and tails of the information, is there an explanation or theory as to why Far Cry 3 has an issue with both the HD 7990 card and the GTX 690 card? Is there something in that game engine that could be improved?
The problems FC3 has are with the game engine - it just wasn't coded well for a variable performing platform (like the PC) and the devs seem to have very little desire to go back and change it / fix it.
post #222 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by vampirr View Post

Ryan, thank you for joining the Overclock net community! thumb.gif

Did you test Prototype 2 drivers on other AMD cards from 7xxx series and below if you had the time, if you did then are the results positive for other AMD's GPU's that are not 7990's or dual graphics rather single GPU card ones?
I have not tested non-HD 7990 setups yet, but the driver is the same, the architecture is the same and results *should* be the same.
post #223 of 289
Seems to me that if it will not run well on top end hardware then it is just coded poorly, period, regardless of platform.
 
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post #224 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanShrout View Post

This is pretty much correct. You keep rendering frames at a high speed but it only pulls the most recent FULL frame to the screen. Without Vsync, the screen is always sent the most recent frame no matter where it is in the scan out process.

No... Vsync causes blocking on the app thread. The app doesn't keep rendering at full speed behind the displays back and neither does the gpu. Vsync serialializes everything...

On a 60hz display, every 16 ms display starts retracing.

So start app...
GPU renders frame. Frame takes 13ms. The remaining 3ms are wasted because you can't flip the back buffer faster than 16ms when vsynced. So the gpu goes idle for 3ms and the app thread gets stalled via queued frame back pressure.

At 16ms the display is starting scanout again, so the backbuffer (frame that finished rendering 3ms ago) becomes the front buffer and this new frame displays for 16 ms.

Meanwhile, while the display is showing the front buffer for 16ms, the app is again rendering to the back buffer, hoping to make the 16ms cut off time.

Lets say this time it takes 18ms to render the frame... That means the vsync retrace deadline is missed, and instead of waiting 16ms, you have to wait 2 retrace cycles... 33ms to show a new frame. So the same currently shown frame (i.e. the front buffer) is shown for two consecutive display refresh cycles.

In other words, even though the frame took 18ms to finish rendering... Just a bit more than 13ms before... You have to wait 33ms (!!!) to see it on the screen.

The vertical retrace is like a bus that leaves on a set interval like 1hour. It doesn't matter if you miss the bus by a second or by 59.99 minutes... You're still waiting until the next bus that comes an hour after the prior one.
Edited by Seven7h - 4/25/13 at 9:12pm
post #225 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenFaux View Post

I was specifically referring to your comment about the consistency of this "fix" being reliant on drive updates. However, this did not seem to be something Nvidia had to do with GPUs previous to the G110 series which also implemented software monitoring. My question is why you think AMD's implementation would be worse than Nvidia's efforts, which you seemed to imply.

As to my "allusion" that it was only the GTX690 which possessed this hardware implementation of metering, this was predicated by Nvidia themselves specifically mentioning only the GTX690 when talking about the monitoring capabilities. Even so, the presence of a hardware solution on the whole of the GTX600 does little to suggest that this wouldn't be something easily (or not so easily) implemented on AMDs next line of GPUs.

Also, there's no reason at all to get nasty with your wording. Despite this being the internet there is no reason we can't have a civil discussion.

i am being prudent with my outlook. AMD has not inspired confidence in how they handle the driver support for their GPUS in the last year and a half; from the release of the 7xxxx series (Do AMD's Radeon HD 7000s Trade Image Quality For Performance?) to having drivers ready for AAA game releases.( 2012 AMD and NVIDIA Driver Performance Summary Review) granted AMD has gotten much better in the last few months but it isn't quite long enough to warrant throwing caution to the wind. (at least not for me were i sweat, bleed and have broken bones to earn my paycheck along with having to eat nothing but beans for weeks so i can also keep a roof over my head and the lights turned on)

i can understand that the first reference i linked was a 690 PR so it would be understandable to infer the hardware base frame metering may have been on the 690 only. however, i do not find myself giving much effort in how i word my replies in a discussion when the other party does not seem to even put forth an effort in opening another browser tab to do some fact checking before responding; esp. after i spend the time checking my own first.

sorry if you don't like it.
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post #226 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven7h View Post


No... Vsync causes blocking on the app thread. The app doesn't keep rendering at full speed behind the displays back and neither does the gpu. Vsync serialializes everything...

On a 60hz display, every 16 ms display starts retracing.

So start app...
GPU renders frame. Frame takes 13ms. The remaining 3ms are wasted because you can't flip the back buffer faster than 16ms when vsynced. So the gpu goes idle for 3ms and the app thread gets stalled via queued frame back pressure.

At 16ms the display is starting scanout again, so the backbuffer (frame that finished rendering 3ms ago) becomes the front buffer and this new frame displays for 16 ms.

Meanwhile, while the display is showing the front buffer for 16ms, the app is again rendering to the back buffer, hoping to make the 16ms cut off time.

Lets say this time it takes 18ms to render the frame... That means the vsync retrace deadline is missed, and instead of waiting 16ms, you have to wait 2 retrace cycles... 33ms to show a new frame. So the same currently shown frame (i.e. the front buffer) is shown for two consecutive display refresh cycles.

In other words, even though the frame took 18ms to finish rendering... Just a bit more than 13ms before... You have to wait 33ms (!!!) to see it on the screen.

The vertical retrace is like a bus that leaves on a set interval like 1hour. It doesn't matter if you miss the bus by a second or by 59.99 minutes... You're still waiting until the next bus that comes an hour after the prior one.

Well said (a great explanation); and for those who can extrapolate more from this, the discrepancy in timing and cycling between display and the application driving the frame rendering, is part of the 'lag' exhibited in mouse movement in high-paced, fluid-action games (like first person shooters) that is very undesirable and often why VSYNC gets left disabled in a majority of those types of games (at least for the crowd that doesn't mind screen tearing).
    
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post #227 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanShrout View Post

The problems FC3 has are with the game engine - it just wasn't coded well for a variable performing platform (like the PC) and the devs seem to have very little desire to go back and change it / fix it.

Tho Far Cry 3 Blood Dragon doesnt have these problems what original FC3 has, both are using same engine aswell.
post #228 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ha-Nocri View Post

Single-card issues, like what? Never had those with AMD.

Micorstuttering. You see the comparison video. my GPU sounds like the Left one exactly. and i hate it.. it hurts my eyes.
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post #229 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramzinho View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ha-Nocri View Post

Single-card issues, like what? Never had those with AMD.

Micorstuttering. You see the comparison video. my GPU sounds like the Left one exactly. and i hate it.. it hurts my eyes.

I feel ya brother. I easily get headaches and after about 15 minutes with that stutter, I am done, no matter what I have been playing. I wish I had held off getting rid of my 7970s till I at least tried the prototypes but I have been dealing with unsmooth frame rate since I left 580s/590s (lets face it quad-sli blows) for a 6990+6970 setup, so about 2 years give or take.
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post #230 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanShrout View Post

Hey all, I try not to butt in on conversations that relate to my stories on other sites, but I just wanted to point out something that has been mentioned in this thread a few times.


Welcome to OCN!

Excellent job on the reviews. thumb.gif
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