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Theory: Why Sub-Ambient cooling doesn't kill right away - Page 2

post #11 of 20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldovi View Post
I postulate, that, if you don't seal the tubing onto the waterblock then you might have water leak all over the processor. This is the fundamental reason why no one should use watercooling.
Ah yes, the "assumed risk" factor...

But assumed risk isn't the focus of this thread- Shall we get back on topic?


What do you think of the situation if insulation was not sufficient?
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post #12 of 20
Here's my theory. You know how potholes form? Road freezes and warms up and freezes and warms up and freezes...... you get the point. Eventually a chunk of the road comes up. This can do the same thing to plastic, metal, silicone, wires, ribber, all that kind of stuff.

that's where 'im betting the problems happen.
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post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burn View Post
Ah yes, the "assumed risk" factor...

But assumed risk isn't the focus of this thread- Shall we get back on topic?


What do you think of the situation if insulation was not sufficient?
It is not assumed risk. It is the result of faulty precautions.

See, I think you missed my point. Water cooling, in order to be successful, requires a certain about of care to be placed on the sealing of the tubing to the components. Likewise, phase and N02 requires that a certain amount of care be placed to insulation of components. Without observing these precautions, you are doomed to failure. This is not a fault in the cooling method, but rather a fault in the user.
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post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by ae804 View Post
Here's my theory. You know how potholes form? Road freezes and warms up and freezes and warms up and freezes...... you get the point. Eventually a chunk of the road comes up. This can do the same thing to plastic, metal, silicone, wires, ribber, all that kind of stuff.

that's where 'im betting the problems happen.
Plastic is far more malleable than your typical road surface. Also, I did not know this was the cause of pot holes. You see, I live in Florida, and we have plenty of pot holes.
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post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burn View Post
-----Theory------


Let us take sub-zero cooling to the average phase-change setup....Say, -40C.

We all know that frost obviously forms at that temperature, right? No single TEC is capable to reach that temperature, so this one's for the phase change/DICE/LN2 guys.

So we have frost forming on the various components of the motherboard, because water condenses on the board because it's below the ambient temp. It turns to frost, because we're chilling to -40C. So, we run the setup for a while, anyhere from an hour to several days, I will have my TEC rig up for multiple weeks at a time if the Windows Gods permit it. It doesn't really matter for how long, just that frost is forming.

So now we shut down the computer. Phase change/DICE/LN2 no longer is cooling the motherboard, so it warms back up. Remember the frost we formed? No longer at -40C, it too begins to warm up. Bang, it defrosts and we're left with several tiny puddles of water. Here's where we get damage, these puddles dripping onto our various capacitors, video card(s) and motheboard components.

^That is where the damage occurs- Not while we're benching, but after we've stopped cooling everything down.

Why doesn't it apply to TEC users? Mainly because we don't get cold enough. We might get down to freezing or under about 10 deg. C during the day-to-day, but we just don't get cold enough to get frost forming from what I have read and observed if insulated properly. Insulation provides a good enough barrier that we don't need to worry about frost forming because insulation provides a good enough barrier from the -20C TEC module and coldplate to the air inside our cases. Not so much with phase change, DICE and LN2. As the temperature differential increases (From -20 to -40 or -50), you need to use more insulation to provide that barrier.
------------------

Does it make sense at all? Or am I spouting foolishness?
Well it does effect the TEC guys--the dreaded pin rot. The environment in the pins is perfect for biologic invasion. The slime actually will short out the pins after a while--so it is necessary to remove and clean the CPU and Ziff occasioanlly.

Otherwise right on.
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post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldovi View Post
Plastic is far more malleable than your typical road surface. Also, I did not know this was the cause of pot holes. You see, I live in Florida, and we have plenty of pot holes.
It accelerates pothole growth. You also have the friction from car tires to creat potholes also.
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post #17 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldovi View Post
I strongly disagree.
  1. Water condensation will form at all temperatures below ambient assuming the air is not dry.
  2. Frost does still conduct electricity.
  3. Dielectric grease, insulation, and heater pads will ensure that the motherboard and other components stay warm (weird isn't it?)
Does frost conduct? Pure water doesn't and there are no ions dissolved in frost. I would guess that frost does not conduct but I have nothing to back that up.

Besides - he isn't saying that the parts that frost over or are insulated will fry - he's saying that once the frost melts it has the potential to drip onto a non-insulated or under-insulated part. I think
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post #18 of 20
I think the issue of the components being affected is both an issue for sub ambient(2-4c difference) and sub zero cooling.

water is what kills the conduits and both subambient and subzero will create the conditions necessary for water to form on the cooled surfaces.


As you stated allready, insulation is used as a preventive measure and wether that's a 40watt tec or 5gallons of ln2 you'll have to insulate if you plan on running for a long enough period of time.

your are right. without insulation you are ASKING to kill your components.. anybody foolish enough to jump into extreme cooling is smart enough to be carefull about it.

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post #19 of 20
It's all in the insulation. I ran my 437w peltier on my 3000+ Winchester for almost 2 years 24/7, the CPU never went above 0°C. The CPU/mobo didn't die, I installed them in my sisters computer when I upgraded (she is still using today).

If you FILL the socket with dielectric grease, put grease between your various layers of good insulation, and don't allow any air contact your subambient components, you won't have any trouble with condensation. Your neoprene should be thick enough to keep the "cold in and the heat out." If there's no condensation on the components (pins) there won't be any pinrot. You have to "pack" the socket as if you're packing a bearing with grease. Get as much in there as possible. If you do it right, the grease should "squeeze" out as you push the CPU in.
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post #20 of 20
I second Pinheads post; I made the mistake of being lazy when packing my socket and paid for it the first time around.

When you think you've filled the socket completely, spend another 10-15 minutes packing it in and you'll notice tiny air bubbles comming out here and there. The other thing I learned the first time around was that when insulating the mobo make sure to insulate all gaps around the socket as well. This will help insulate the socket and will keep the dielectric grease from comming out the bottom sides of your socket (creating more room for air to leak in). This is by far the most crucial steps in condensation proofing as the rest is fairly simple and difficult to screw up, I honestly wish someone had been more detailed about insulating the socket in their guides so I didn't have to burn a $250 mobo ><

Also I don't know why more people aren't using dow corning conformal coating, it looks freakin great considering it hardens to a clear transparant silicone layer. I would also recommend getting some different thickness neoprene pads to make sure you get a tight seal when mounting the block. The insulation on my mobo is hardly noticable when the block is on (http://www.overclock.net/attachments...g?d=1165453215)

No comments on the cable management please
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