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[PS] Sea Surface Temperatures Reach Highest Level In 150 Years - Page 27

post #261 of 282
(CAVEAT: I am on my first cup of coffee.)
Quote:
Why is there such a huge focus on CO2 when out of all the greenhouse gases, it is one of the least harmful and is actually not that far above natural carbon holding capacity

I would argue that the focus on carbon comes from a few different sources.

First, it was the first indication that we might have a global problem. Yes there were environmental issues prior, but I don't think we realized the scale at which we can alter natural processes.

Edit: Lost my train of thought and forgot to finish this.

Second, our role in its change is easy to measure, and at least intellectually easy to change.

Third, residence time. Increased atmospheric carbon will be there for a while.

And finally, momentum. The talk has been about carbon, but so has the research. I would estimate that 5 years is a pretty good lag between funding and publication for small studies. The big studies take even longer.

Thanks for the carbon cycle link, I would suggest a more complete version however. (This is still incomplete.)

There is no static "natural carbon holding capacity". There are sinks and sources (generally the same tbh), and carbon flows from one to another, until it is ultimately sequestered through burial. AFAIK, the only introduction of material to the planet that occurs naturally is through volcanic eruption, cycling of plutonic waters, and from space. The problem with anthropogenic sources of carbon are that we have outpaced the rate at which carbon is sequestered. Primarily by using previously sequestered carbon and releasing it so quickly.

At the moment the ocean is taking the brunt of adjusting to higher CO2 levels. AFAIK no other sink is incorporating atmospheric CO2 at anything near an increased rate.
Quote:
The real issues are with nitrogen oxides, atmospheric and ground level ozone, acidification of soils, deforestation (not just because of carbon exchange) and permanent scarring of landscapes (eg. mines and dams).

I agree with you here, there are other issues that directly impact human health on a much more tangible timescale. However the source of these issues is predominately the same as carbon. NOx and ozone from internal combustion engines (as well as haze, which is a mixture of gases and particulate matter). The Nitrites, Nitrates, and Sulphates that lead to soil acidification are products of coal fired industry and energy production.

Deforestation certainly plays a significant role in the carbon cycle but in this context you are right, it is a problem that needs to be addressed for a variety of reasons. Industrial brownfields are a blight, unfortunately unless manufacturing and consumptive efficiency increase they are not going anywhere.
Quote:
What governments should be doing is instead of taxing big polluting companies, they should be subsidising more efficient technologies and encourage said companies to phase them in.

I agree, but I would add that some pollution taxes are necessary as an incentive to actually adopt the new standards.
Quote:
he science behind global warming is very sketchy (both for and against) and you should never take anything proponents or skeptics of global warming say with total confidence.

While there is variation in estimates, and regarding drivers and final outcome. To say the science behind climate change is sketchy is fallacious. "Sketchy" implies either that the science is unsound, lacks evidence or that there is outright manipulation. Skepticism is good, but the vast majority of evidence is strikingly clear. We are altering the natural processes of the planet on a timescale that has never been seen, from what we know, on the planet before (not including asteroid impacts or massive volcanic eruptions).
Quote:
however we are discussing only global warming.
The planet is a system, it is very difficult to address one problem in isolation.
Edited by BenC - 5/3/13 at 6:59am
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post #262 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky_Chimp View Post

Yeah, too bad the skeptics have louder voices, that's why it's such a tough argument to actually set things straight. It doesn't matter if you present proven facts, the critics will yell over you and make the facts sound like lunacy.

Pretty much this, a thousand times.
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post #263 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

It only sounds like genocide to short sighted people who think that history begins with their birth and ends with their death.

75 years is NOTHING in the global scheme of time. Neither is 150 years or even 200,000 years (how long man has been on Earth).

If you normalized the life of the planet into a 24 hour period, with midnight being both when it was created and midnight being right now, ALL of man's history is TRIVIAL.

Homo Sapiens have existed for about 200,000 years. 200,000 is 4 one-thousandths of 1 percent of 4.5 billion. 4 one-thousandths of 1 percent of 24 hours is about 3.5 seconds. So, on a 24-hour earth clock, Homo Sapiens have existed for about 3.5 seconds.

Cro-Magnons (modern humans) have existed for about 35,000 years. 35,000 is 8 ten-thousandths of 1 percent of 4.5 billion. 8 ten-thousandths of 1 percent of 24 hours is about 0.7 seconds. So, on a 24-hour earth clock, Modern Man (us) has existed for less than one second.

So when you start thinking of "Saving the Planet" and putting man's effects and time into PERSPECTIVE, you will see where I'm coming from, and just how insignificant that doing something now that WILL WORK in 75 years, as opposed to the pipe dreams that have been proposed for decades (or over a century, as in the case of the electric car), isn't as crazy as you think. No one is killed one second ahead of their normal death rate, they just are replaced "willy nilly".
That's starting to sound similar to eugenics...
post #264 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Vanelay View Post

That's starting to sound similar to eugenics...

Of course it is.

IMO, it is no worse than the "other sides" proposals that would destroy global economies, kill millions because of those economic collapses, and basing stuff on as of yet invented technologies and exempt poor countries with massive starving and poor populations.
post #265 of 282
Quote:
That's starting to sound similar to eugenics...

Yes it is. Fortunately, it is a measurable trend that if people are educated about reproduction, and birth control is made available, fertility rates decline. People want to get it on but the unfortunate fact is that a lot of people still do not understand human reproduction.

I cannot devote much time to this today, but if you have a question post up and I'll do my best to provide an answer asap.
Quote:
IMO, it is no worse than the "other sides" proposals that would destroy global economies, kill millions because of those economic collapses, and basing stuff on as of yet invented technologies and exempt poor countries with massive starving and poor populations.

Care to provide any amount of evidence for this?

Germany has manged to move towards a very large percentage of renewable energy, and their economy is arguably the strongest in Europe at the moment. Norway produces almost all of its energy from renewable sources. China is dumping huge amounts of money into renewable energy and leads the world in production.

Renewable is only as damaging as we let it be. Yes it takes materials, yes it will have some negative impacts, but in of itself it is not the harbinger of some apocalypse. It is just a better mouse trap.
Edited by BenC - 5/3/13 at 7:13am
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post #266 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Of course it is.

IMO, it is no worse than the "other sides" proposals that would destroy global economies, kill millions because of those economic collapses, and basing stuff on as of yet invented technologies and exempt poor countries with massive starving and poor populations.
What you mean just advancing with society as we normally are? We're getting pretty good at dealing with the issues caused by industrialization, and birth rates decrease as the living conditions of countries increase. It doesn't really look like we're headed for a collapse.
post #267 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Vanelay View Post

What you mean just advancing with society as we normally are? We're getting pretty good at dealing with the issues caused by industrialization, and birth rates decrease as the living conditions of countries increase. It doesn't really look like we're headed for a collapse.

We aren't heading for a collapse if we don't do silly things like Kyoto, you are correct. We would be if we DID do silly thinks like Kyoto though.

But if people (not you, just in general) want to climb on to their high horse about going global "betterness", then let's really address the issue as a whole ... pollution, energy, poverty, starvation ... ALL of which has common denominator ... overpopulation.
post #268 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

It only sounds like genocide to short sighted people who think that history begins with their birth and ends with their death.

75 years is NOTHING in the global scheme of time. Neither is 150 years or even 200,000 years (how long man has been on Earth).

If you normalized the life of the planet into a 24 hour period, with midnight being both when it was created and midnight being right now, ALL of man's history is TRIVIAL.

Homo Sapiens have existed for about 200,000 years. 200,000 is 4 one-thousandths of 1 percent of 4.5 billion. 4 one-thousandths of 1 percent of 24 hours is about 3.5 seconds. So, on a 24-hour earth clock, Homo Sapiens have existed for about 3.5 seconds.

Cro-Magnons (modern humans) have existed for about 35,000 years. 35,000 is 8 ten-thousandths of 1 percent of 4.5 billion. 8 ten-thousandths of 1 percent of 24 hours is about 0.7 seconds. So, on a 24-hour earth clock, Modern Man (us) has existed for less than one second.

So when you start thinking of "Saving the Planet" and putting man's effects and time into PERSPECTIVE, you will see where I'm coming from, and just how insignificant that doing something now that WILL WORK in 75 years, as opposed to the pipe dreams that have been proposed for decades (or over a century, as in the case of the electric car), isn't as crazy as you think. No one is killed one second ahead of their normal death rate, they just are replaced "willy nilly".
You made it sound like genocide by saying you're getting rid of people on this planet meaning there already there. There's a difference between birth control and killing 5-6 billion people on the earth! I know we're extremely insignificant and I'm not refuting any of the time stuff youre stating but you made it sound like genocide in all your previous posts
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post #269 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunreeper View Post

You made it sound like genocide by saying you're getting rid of people on this planet meaning there already there. There's a difference between birth control and killing 5-6 billion people on the earth! I know we're extremely insignificant and I'm not refuting any of the time stuff youre stating but you made it sound like genocide in all your previous posts

Are you going to keep going back to what you ASSumed I said, or are you going to address the issue now that you know what I said?
post #270 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

We aren't heading for a collapse if we don't do silly things like Kyoto, you are correct. We would be if we DID do silly thinks like Kyoto though.

But if people (not you, just in general) want to climb on to their high horse about going global "betterness", then let's really address the issue as a whole ... pollution, energy, poverty, starvation ... ALL of which has common denominator ... overpopulation.
Population tends to control itself in first world countries. Once countries become industrialized and the living standards improve, there isn't as much of a need for many children, so the rate of increase in population decreases.
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