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post #171 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

When are you going to realize that this doesn't happen to everyone? I've seen input lag and some configurations aren't affected. I don't know what the wildcard is that causes it, although vsync on CAN cause it under certain conditions. I've seen it with razer mice and some other configs. It doesn't affect my system though. I've always used asus motherboards, logitech mice, and input lag hasn't affected my past 3 systems except in a few select games - dead space 1 being one of them.

You keep making broad statements about input lag. Input lag doesn't affect everyone. Tearing affects everyone. I don't know what causes the input lag, and I know that vsync can exacerbate it. Is it the motherboard? Mouse drivers? I don't know. My system is unaffected.

IF I had to put up with tearing i'd stop PC gaming forever or go with a 144hz lightboost screen. Which, oddly enough, one of the biggest complaints about lightboost is the input lag it creates. Whatever rolleyes.gif

Just realize that tearing is just as unacceptable as the input lag you speak of. Neither are acceptable. If I had to put up with either permanently, I would never game on the PC ever again. Period.
I've experienced input lag with vsync on pretty much every build I've ever done, along with experiencing some degree of micro stutter in at least some games on every multigpu setup I had used previous to this one. I find it hard to believe it only effect certain configurations when my setups have been so vastly different from eachother yet all exhibit the exact same issue with the exact same setting. I would think just understanding what vsync does would be enough for people to understand why it introduces input lag. In forcing the rendering pipeline to wait for the refresh rate of the monitor it will almost always cause some form of input lag, I think this comes back to peoples ability to perceive it rather than arguing it exists.
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post #172 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by scyy View Post


I've experienced input lag with vsync on pretty much every build I've ever done, along with experiencing some degree of micro stutter in at least some games on every multigpu setup I had used previous to this one. I find it hard to believe it only effect certain configurations when my setups have been so vastly different from eachother yet all exhibit the exact same issue with the exact same setting. I would think just understanding what vsync does would be enough for people to understand why it introduces input lag. In forcing the rendering pipeline to wait for the refresh rate of the monitor it will almost always cause some form of input lag, I think this comes back to peoples ability to perceive it rather than arguing it exists.

I think it more to do with the fact the people who like to play with Vsync on all the time like me just get accustomed to it, but its when you turn Vsync off now and then to see the difference it becomes much more apparent.
post #173 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by scyy View Post


I've experienced input lag with vsync on pretty much every build I've ever done, along with experiencing some degree of micro stutter in at least some games on every multigpu setup I had used previous to this one. I find it hard to believe it only effect certain configurations when my setups have been so vastly different from eachother yet all exhibit the exact same issue with the exact same setting. I would think just understanding what vsync does would be enough for people to understand why it introduces input lag. In forcing the rendering pipeline to wait for the refresh rate of the monitor it will almost always cause some form of input lag, I think this comes back to peoples ability to perceive it rather than arguing it exists.

Ah, you default to the idiocy argument. Typical. Understand that there are many people with just as much experience as you with PC hardware, perhaps even more, and know exactly of the effect you're speaking of - I HAVE experienced it. But it hasn't happened on my past 3 systems. I toggle between vsync on and off quite a bit. There is no difference in terms of input lag, but it is highly dependent on the game in question. There are some games with bad input code, which like I said, dead space 1 is one of them. For games like this you have to use control panel vsync and disable vsync in game. Then input is fine.

Another thing is, without exception adaptive vsync never causes input lag, as long as ingame vsync is disabled. Again, I think there are wildcard factors that can cause it. I know it has happened with every razer mouse i've used, their software is terrible. If you want more anecdotal evidence, simply google "razer input lag" - it's a big issue with razer mice. I believe mouse drivers are a major cause of it, and people don't realize it. I can put a razer mouse on my system now and I know i'll get input lag. But my G9x doesn't ever have input lag. It doesn't happen with my current system so I don't know what the other wildcards factors that can cause it are - Perhaps this is something you should investigate. But I do know that input responsiveness is virtually the same in nearly every game with vsync on and off, and I have nearly 200 games in my steam library. So please don't default to the ignorance argument, it's tiring. Fact of the matter is, like I said, tearing is *just as* unacceptable as input lag. IF I had to put up with that nonsense in every game, I can assuredly tell you that I would never, ever, ever game on a PC.

Your statement that tearing is an acceptable alternative to input lag is pretty stupid. The truth is that neither are acceptable. I would never game with either one, and If I had to tolerate tearing on the PC I would just as soon go console exclusive. Tearing sucks. Period.
Edited by xoleras - 5/12/13 at 12:41pm
post #174 of 220
Try playing Counter-Strike Source with v-sync ON. Impossible. In saying that, all my other games I play with v-sync on 120hz screen. I shall try turning it off from now on see how it goes.
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post #175 of 220
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Originally Posted by ALEXH- View Post

Try playing Counter-Strike Source with v-sync ON. Impossible. In saying that, all my other games I play with v-sync on 120hz screen. I shall try turning it off from now on see how it goes.

I play CS:GO quite a bit and it wouldn't v sync unless I go full screen.

On topic: That's good news for my friend who bought 2 7970's when they came out I guess...
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post #176 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALEXH- View Post

Try playing Counter-Strike Source with v-sync ON. Impossible. In saying that, all my other games I play with v-sync on 120hz screen. I shall try turning it off from now on see how it goes.

I play Counter-Strike Source with v-sync ON. biggrin.gif
post #177 of 220
You should disable vsync regardless. There's no point as you should be able to push frames consistently over refresh signal.

Vsync regardless of signal value effects input latency, not to mention limits updating of netcode.
post #178 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylit View Post

You should disable vsync regardless. There's no point as you should be able to push frames consistently over refresh signal.

Vsync regardless of signal value effects input latency, not to mention limits updating of netcode.

Noted. Will do.

On topic. will these drivers include a fix for all crossfire setups or just 7000 series? I've been struggling for a while to find a decent enough driver for 6970s.
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post #179 of 220
I think what is being misunderstood here is:

Frame tearing is better than v-sync lag.

While I partially agree on that statement. Frame tearing can be extremely minor to extremely bad. V-sync for me has been pretty uniformly bad. I play games competitively, I'm not interested in playing single player AAA garbage, or COD multiplayer, bring on the NS2, QL, TF2. I just can't have mouse lag in these games, hell, I even hate it in point and click adventure games.

The answer to these problems lies in FPS limiting commands. If these arent available, adaptive sync (never tried), 120hz, or living with it are the only options I would recommend.

I also second the notion that all multi-gpu setups stutter and are horrendous. AMD being by far the worst offender here.
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post #180 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

Ah, you default to the idiocy argument. Typical. Understand that there are many people with just as much experience as you with PC hardware, perhaps even more, and know exactly of the effect you're speaking of - I HAVE experienced it. But it hasn't happened on my past 3 systems. I toggle between vsync on and off quite a bit. There is no difference in terms of input lag, but it is highly dependent on the game in question. There are some games with bad input code, which like I said, dead space 1 is one of them. For games like this you have to use control panel vsync and disable vsync in game. Then input is fine.

Another thing is, without exception adaptive vsync never causes input lag, as long as ingame vsync is disabled. Again, I think there are wildcard factors that can cause it. I know it has happened with every razer mouse i've used, their software is terrible. If you want more anecdotal evidence, simply google "razer input lag" - it's a big issue with razer mice. I believe mouse drivers are a major cause of it, and people don't realize it. I can put a razer mouse on my system now and I know i'll get input lag. But my G9x doesn't ever have input lag. It doesn't happen with my current system so I don't know what the other wildcards factors that can cause it are - Perhaps this is something you should investigate. But I do know that input responsiveness is virtually the same in nearly every game with vsync on and off, and I have nearly 200 games in my steam library. So please don't default to the ignorance argument, it's tiring. Fact of the matter is, like I said, tearing is *just as* unacceptable as input lag. IF I had to put up with that nonsense in every game, I can assuredly tell you that I would never, ever, ever game on a PC.

Your statement that tearing is an acceptable alternative to input lag is pretty stupid. The truth is that neither are acceptable. I would never game with either one, and If I had to tolerate tearing on the PC I would just as soon go console exclusive. Tearing sucks. Period.

Yes, they both do suck and obviously I would rather not have either. However one will have an actual negative effect on your ability to play games and one will only be a visual annoyance. I rather have the visual annoyance than be at an obvious disadvantage in a multiplayer situation. Guess what, I also have a logitech mouse, guess what, I also use the nvidia control panel to enable adaptive vsync when I have used it and guess what? I still get noticeable input lag on most games. Some games it works with better than others but it gets annoying when people use blanket statements about always using vsync when for a good number of people it brings a very noticeable and very negative effect. You sound as ridiculous as the people who were going on about how microstutter isn't an issue because some people don't perceive it when this FCAT stuff started coming out. I would like to know the magic vsync setting you use that doesn't induce input lag as once again the very way vsync works will induce at least some input lag simply by the way it functions to remove tearing. Lastly naming off the amount of games you have adds nothing to your argument other than showing you really don't have much to stand on other than "I play lots of games and don't notice it so it doesn't exist!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomSG View Post

I think what is being misunderstood here is:

Frame tearing is better than v-sync lag.

While I partially agree on that statement. Frame tearing can be extremely minor to extremely bad. V-sync for me has been pretty uniformly bad. I play games competitively, I'm not interested in playing single player AAA garbage, or COD multiplayer, bring on the NS2, QL, TF2. I just can't have mouse lag in these games, hell, I even hate it in point and click adventure games.

The answer to these problems lies in FPS limiting commands. If these arent available, adaptive sync (never tried), 120hz, or living with it are the only options I would recommend.

I also second the notion that all multi-gpu setups stutter and are horrendous. AMD being by far the worst offender here.

Thank you, I'm not saying screen tearing is a good thing or an acceptable thing, just that in my own experience the effects of not having vsync on in the majority of games is a better experience than the input lag I typically get in most games. I'm not saying it's in every game as some games do implement it better than others but for the most part there is some degree of input lag at least from my own experience and a good deal of others.
Edited by scyy - 5/12/13 at 7:37pm
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