Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [techreport] AMD says frame pacing beta driver due in June/July timeframe
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[techreport] AMD says frame pacing beta driver due in June/July timeframe - Page 19

post #181 of 220
If you think that having massive tears horrendously distorting the image on your screen isn't an "obvious disadvantage" in a multiplayer situation, I'd like you to give me a hit of what you're smoking.

You can have the most precise and fastest aiming in the world but if your screen is torn and you can't see what you're aiming then it is completely irrelevant.
post #182 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by lajgnd View Post

If you think that having massive tears horrendously distorting the image on your screen isn't an "obvious disadvantage" in a multiplayer situation, I'd like you to give me a hit of what you're smoking.

You can have the most precise and fastest aiming in the world but if your screen is torn and you can't see what you're aiming then it is completely irrelevant.

Now that is just blowing it completely out of proportion. That is an extremely rare case that the screen would tear to that extent, usually it's one or two horizontal lines that are only there for brief moments while turning quickly. If a game were to tear that bad I would admit I would probably turn on vsync but that is once again a very rare case at least in my experience.
3930k
(20 items)
 
  
Reply
3930k
(20 items)
 
  
Reply
post #183 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by scyy View Post

"I play lots of games and don't notice it so it doesn't exist!"

That's not what I said at all, like I said I have experienced input lag. I know exactly what you're referring to. Like I said I also toggle between vsync off and on and adaptive vsync a lot. But does that matter? No, because at this point you're just arguing out of stubbornness. You refuse to admit any viewpoint other than your own has merit, whether it involves tearing vs input lag or people able to eliminate input lag through other methods. Either way, I have experienced input lag and I can reproduce it in 1-2 games. I know exactly what it is. But, I think it's not worth arguing because you're basically putting your fingers in your ears, refusing to hear other viewpoints and being completely stubborn about it. Both input lag and tearing are unacceptable. If I had to put up with either, I would not game on the PC. Ever. Period. I would just go console exclusive, because both are big problems for ME.

If you're going to be arrogant and stubborn, it's not even worth discussing.
Edited by xoleras - 5/12/13 at 7:47pm
post #184 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

That's not what I said at all, like I said I have experienced input lag. I know exactly what you're referring to. Like I said I also toggle between vsync off and on and adaptive vsync a lot. But does that matter? No, because at this point you're just arguing out of stubbornness. You refuse to admit any viewpoint other than your own has merit, whether it involves tearing vs input lag or people able to eliminate input lag through other methods. Either way, I have experienced input lag and I can reproduce it in 1-2 games. I know exactly what it is. But, I think it's not worth arguing because you're basically putting your fingers in your ears, refusing to hear other viewpoints and being completely stubborn about it. Both input lag and tearing are unacceptable. If I had to put up with either, I would not game on the PC. Ever. Period. I would just go console exclusive, because both are big problems for ME.

If you're going to be arrogant and stubborn, it's not even worth discussing. I think we're done here.

Dude, you have done literally the exact same thing by refusing to accept the idea that many others do experience it with a wide variety of setups. The only reason I even got into this in the first place is you were saying with complete adamance that anyone who doesn't play with vsync isn't a real gamer and that input lag essentially doesn't exist with vsync, that is the only reason I have kept at this because YOU were being arrogant and claiming absolutes.
Edited by scyy - 5/12/13 at 7:49pm
3930k
(20 items)
 
  
Reply
3930k
(20 items)
 
  
Reply
post #185 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by scyy View Post

Dude, you have done literally the exact same thing by refusing to accept the idea that many others do experience it with a wide variety of setups. The only reason I even got into this in the first place is you were saying with complete adamance that anyone who doesn't play with vsync isn't a real gamer and that input lag essentially doesn't exist with vsync, that is the only reason I have kept at this because YOU were being arrogant and claiming absolutes.

Okay. If you say so. I'll go ahead and mention that I shouldn't have stated the bit about "real gamers". Regarding the topic, I agree that input lag sucks. I also think that tearing is a bigger problem than you may suggest, although how badly it bothers someone is subjective. I personally am very bothered by it. I'm bothered by both. Also, since most players game with a 60hz panel obviously many have found ways around input lag. Assuming that 100% of users have input lag with vsync on is a far reaching and incorrect assumption - although I do agree that vsync can, in many situations, cause it. But you're suggesting that it affects 100% of users, and I don't agree with that at all. Because, I know for an absolute fact that I can head over to a buddies house with his razer and experience floaty mouse movement all day. Yet on my system, it's perfect with vsync on. There are ways around it, and there are wildcard factors that can affect it. Anyway, I'm really not interested in discussing it anymore.
Edited by xoleras - 5/12/13 at 7:54pm
post #186 of 220
I agree that VSYNC causes input lag that makes games simply unplayable while tearing is more of an annoyance than anything. This was why I originally went with a 120Hz monitor (my old Samsung S27A950D). Having lightning fast response time while maintaining a smooth and steady onscreen image was fantastic. Eventually I tired of the compromises inherent to TN panels and 1080p however and I was right back to the input lag vs screen tearing conundrum with my 1440p IPS screens. Again, I chose tearing over the lag created by VSYNC. This is just my opinion and for some tearing is worse but I have never used VSYNC and had it not lag and I can't stand that feeling while playing a game like Crysis or BF3. I just can't wait until 120Hz 1440p IPS or PLS screens become more mainstream and we can finally do away with this issue for good...
post #187 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by scyy View Post

I've experienced input lag with vsync on pretty much every build I've ever done, along with experiencing some degree of micro stutter in at least some games on every multigpu setup I had used previous to this one. I find it hard to believe it only effect certain configurations when my setups have been so vastly different from eachother yet all exhibit the exact same issue with the exact same setting. I would think just understanding what vsync does would be enough for people to understand why it introduces input lag. In forcing the rendering pipeline to wait for the refresh rate of the monitor it will almost always cause some form of input lag, I think this comes back to peoples ability to perceive it rather than arguing it exists.

I've been building PCs for years, it varies from system to system (And I mean stuff as simple as using MS' USB drivers vs the Motherboard makers, what brand of mouse and keyboard, even stuff you'd think is completely unrelated like sound-cards can make a decent difference, etc) and because there are so many variables involved in it, it's near impossible to control (ie. I'll buy this motherboard because I know that that Network chip causes issues, such as the realtek ethernet drivers increasing DPC latency in Windows) but possible to just get used to or to not notice in the first place.
I only notice it on some games, and in those games I simply deal with it or limit my frames at different values until it's playable and doesn't tear.

For another example on how easily virtually any change can alter whether a game gives you input lag with vsync or not (ie. Because vsync pushes the input latency up uniformly, is the games normal input latency low enough so it's still within the unnoticeable area) I noticed a marked decrease in input lag going from ASUS' official drivers for my Xonar to the custom brainbit ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomSG View Post

I think what is being misunderstood here is:

Frame tearing is better than v-sync lag.

While I partially agree on that statement. Frame tearing can be extremely minor to extremely bad. V-sync for me has been pretty uniformly bad. I play games competitively, I'm not interested in playing single player AAA garbage, or COD multiplayer, bring on the NS2, QL, TF2. I just can't have mouse lag in these games, hell, I even hate it in point and click adventure games.

The answer to these problems lies in FPS limiting commands. If these arent available, adaptive sync (never tried), 120hz, or living with it are the only options I would recommend.

I also second the notion that all multi-gpu setups stutter and are horrendous. AMD being by far the worst offender here.

Yes, obviously for a competitive player latency is the most important thing...Graphics don't matter as much, look at how popular CS1.6 is still.
For those of us who play "single player AAA garbage", tearing completely ruins any and all immersion I had previously every time I've experienced it.
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 3570k @ 4.5Ghz ASRock Z77 Pro3 Powercolor Radeon HD7950 3GB @ 1150/1350 4x4GB G.Skill Ares 2000Mhz CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung 840 250GB Western Digital Black 1TB WD1002FAEX Seagate Barracuda 3TB ST3000DM001 Samsung Spinpoint EcoGreen 2TB 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Pioneer DVR-220LBKS Noctua NH-D14 Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm Corsair AF140 Quiet Edition 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Arcitc Cooling Acclero Twin Turbo II Arch Linux x86-64, amdgpu BenQ G2220HD BenQ G2020HD 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Ducky Shine III Year of the Snake, Cherry Blue Silverstone Strider Plus 600w CoolerMaster CM690 II Black and White SteelSeries Sensei Professional 
Mouse PadAudioOther
Artisan Hien Mid Japan Black Large ASUS Xonar DX NZXT Sentry Mesh 30w Fan Controller 
  hide details  
Reply
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 3570k @ 4.5Ghz ASRock Z77 Pro3 Powercolor Radeon HD7950 3GB @ 1150/1350 4x4GB G.Skill Ares 2000Mhz CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung 840 250GB Western Digital Black 1TB WD1002FAEX Seagate Barracuda 3TB ST3000DM001 Samsung Spinpoint EcoGreen 2TB 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Pioneer DVR-220LBKS Noctua NH-D14 Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm Corsair AF140 Quiet Edition 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Arcitc Cooling Acclero Twin Turbo II Arch Linux x86-64, amdgpu BenQ G2220HD BenQ G2020HD 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Ducky Shine III Year of the Snake, Cherry Blue Silverstone Strider Plus 600w CoolerMaster CM690 II Black and White SteelSeries Sensei Professional 
Mouse PadAudioOther
Artisan Hien Mid Japan Black Large ASUS Xonar DX NZXT Sentry Mesh 30w Fan Controller 
  hide details  
Reply
post #188 of 220
I have been playing around with VSYNC lately just to see if I could limit the lag to an acceptable level and get rid of the tearing. Still a work in progress at the moment...
post #189 of 220
Your best bet is to have the game limit the FPS, or get an FPS limiter that comes into play before the DX api. Limit the FPS at that level then put vsync on at the driver level, should reduce lag quite a bit.
Current Rig
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8350 4.6GHz@1.44v GA-990FXA-UD3 R4.0 HD 7950 (1100/1450) 8G Muskin DDR3 1866@8CLS 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
1TB WD LiteOn DVD-RW DL Linux/Windows 19" Phillips TV 1080p 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
OCZ 600W Generic Junk Logitech MX400 Generic Junk 
Audio
SBL 5.1 
  hide details  
Reply
Current Rig
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8350 4.6GHz@1.44v GA-990FXA-UD3 R4.0 HD 7950 (1100/1450) 8G Muskin DDR3 1866@8CLS 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
1TB WD LiteOn DVD-RW DL Linux/Windows 19" Phillips TV 1080p 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
OCZ 600W Generic Junk Logitech MX400 Generic Junk 
Audio
SBL 5.1 
  hide details  
Reply
post #190 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

For those of us who play "single player AAA garbage", tearing completely ruins any and all immersion I had previously every time I've experienced it.

I'm gonna have to come out and say this, I just don't notice frame tearing on my setup. I never have. If I deliberately look for it, it's clearly there, but its not severe enough for me to actually notice it whilst playing.

I'm not however, denying its existence, I just assumed most people put up with it, obviously that's not the case and its a bigger issue for some than I thought. You might be able to say I've subconciously adapted to it, but I'd be far more inclined to say that its not paticularly bad on my setup, as this argument I feel doesn't reverse for the mouse lag caused by v-sync. I always notice it, not matter how small, if my mouse doesn't feel 100% raw, I can't focus.
800D
(16 items)
 
  
Reply
800D
(16 items)
 
  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Hardware News
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [techreport] AMD says frame pacing beta driver due in June/July timeframe