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Samsung F8500 2013 Plasma Range

post #1 of 9
Thread Starter 
Digital Trends describes the new Samsung F8500 Plasma range as the Kuro Killer (referring to the Pioneer Kuro which arguably had the best black levels up until now).

Several reviews also rates the Samsung F8500 Plasma above the Panasonic's new plasma range namely the VT60.

Overall, the Samsung F8500 Plasma is the best plasma TV of 2013 according to HDTV Test UK.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/is-samsungs-f8500-plasma-a-kuro-killer/
Quote:
None more black? Samsung’s F8500 plasma is stunning
By Caleb Denison — March 20, 2013



Today in New York City, Samsung officially unveiled its new line of plasma televisions. Among the new models is the top-of-the-line F8500 series, which we first saw in a private meeting with Samsung at CES 2013. At the time, some of the details surrounding the set were strictly hush-hush. It’s been a hard secret to keep, too, because, as one of Samsung’s reps commented that day, “We think we might have the plasma that could finally knock the Kuro off its perch.” Strong words, indeed. But were they justified?

For those not familiar, “Kuro” refers to Pioneer Electronics’ Kuro Elite TV – long hailed as the TV with the best picture quality ever produced since the invention of television. The best of the best was the Elite PRO-111FD, which debuted in 2008. You read that right – TV nerds are still buzzing about a five-year-old TV.

Since then, journalists and videophiles alike have speculated the arrival of a “Kuro killer” – a TV that would best the best of the best. In 2009, some thought the Panasonic VX100U might be it. In 2010 it was Panasonic’s VT20. And in 2011, we thought Sharp’s partnership with Pioneer on the Elite Pro series might have had the right stuff, but none of those TVs managed to steal the Kuro’s glory. Since then, others have been named as potential contenders, but none has managed to kick King Kuro from his throne. So what makes Samsung think it finally has “the one?”

For one thing, Samsung claims it has achieved its best black levels yet, and we’re inclined to agree. This year, Samsung has incorporated what it calls “Real Black Pro” into its top plasmas. This is essentially a filter comprised of particles that keep ambient light that enters the panel from being reflected back out. This makes the TV look blacker than most plasmas do when turned off, and it clearly aids the TVs picture quality while it is turned on as well. Deep, dark black levels are instrumental in creating an engaging picture with eye-popping color, depth of field, shadow details and contrast. The more a TV’s blacks tend toward grey, the less impressive the picture will appear, and the less effective bright images will be.

The other feather in Samsung’s plasma cap this year is the F8500′s brightness. We’d be willing to bet that the F8500 series is the brightest plasma made to date. Granted, our evaluation is purely subjective, but we’ve simply never seen a plasma quite that bright before, and certainly not paired with black levels so low.

The Kuro was not a particularly bright TV, so you’d usually find them in darkened rooms and basements where ambient light wouldn’t be an issue. That’s fine for dedicated home theater spaces, but what about the rest of us who want to put our TVs in, you know, the living room, with windows around and stuff? Also, because the Kuro wasn’t particularly bright, its contrast wasn’t all that spectacular, so the F8500 may have the Kuro there, too. Add all that up, throw in much more approachable price points than the Kuro offered (The F8500 series runs $2,200 for the 51-inch, $3,200 for the 60-inch and $3,700 for the 64-inch) and we feel pretty safe in saying that the F8500 does a good job of putting the Kuro’s legacy to rest.

We know others will disagree with us on that point. Until it can be proven with objective measurements that the F8500 (or Panasonics ZT60 plasma, for that matter) is capable of zero black-level in the same way the Kuro was, the old, crusty, beast of a box will somehow continue to be revered as the best TV of all time, never mind all the convenience issues, inferior contrast, lack of Smart TV capability, lack of 3D ability, and so on.

Aside from potentially killing the Kuro, we must consider whether Samsung may also be driving the final nail into Panasonic’s coffin as well. Earlier this week, we reported that Panasonic may have to quit the TV business entirely. Though Panasonic has consistently produced some of the best-rated plasma TVs for the last several years, the company is struggling financially – big time. Panasonic will reportedly sell off its healthcare division to shore up its sinking finances – ostensibly to help rescue its TV division – but many doubt the tactic will work. Now that Samsung is coming to the table with the kind of plasma TV that will likely win the hearts of those who see it, it is difficult not to foresee Panasonic’s ultimate fall, with Samsung swooping in to snatch up the plasma fans left in the wake.

We can’t speculate as to whether the timing of the F8500′s arrival was strategic, but Samsung couldn’t have planned it any better.
Check out our video below where we talk about Samsung’s advances in plasma with Steve Panosian, Director of Marketing at Samsung.

Edited by Koehler - 5/5/13 at 7:47am
post #2 of 9
This is old. First reviews had reviewers claiming that it was equal to the VT50. At this point, a lot of people like the VT60 more, and preliminary ZT60 reviews have it beating Kuro blacks.
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post #3 of 9
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

This is old. First reviews had reviewers claiming that it was equal to the VT50. At this point, a lot of people like the VT60 more, and preliminary ZT60 reviews have it beating Kuro blacks.

You're wrong.

HDTV UK has tested both the Samsung F8500 and Panasonic VT60 and the Samsung F8500 was found to be basically the same as the VT60 in black levels, but the only difference was that the Samsung F8500 produced much brighter and vibrant images. The VT60 produced less bright images with the same black level.

Overall the contrast of the Samsung F8500 is much better than the VT60.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ps64f8500-201305012945.htm?page=Performance
Quote:
By David Mackenzie 1 May 2013 Verdict: Highly Recommended Typical price: £2900

When we first caught sight of the Samsung PS64F8500 at the 2013 CES in January, we called the performance of the TV “OLED-like”, which was a bold statement that probably caused a few eyebrows to be raised.

Have a look at the overall contrast performance of one, and we think you’ll agree that this is really not a crazy remark. The PS-64F8500′s best black level, which we measured from a nearly-black screen at 0.006 cd/m2, is neck and neck with this year’s Panasonics. The F8500 dims to near-black if an entirely black screen is input; we defeated this behaviour by keeping a small patch on screen (far away from the measurement area). Just for the record, we achieved these results by using the [Black Optimiser] feature. Setting this to “Dark Room” results in the 0.006 cd/m2 black level. By default, it’s at 0.018 cd/m2, which is still extremely good, but the extra depth of the “Dark Room” setting will be visible and appreciable in… well, a dark room. The menu blurb for this control promises that it will “get deeper blacks and magnify the contrast of low gradation by using PDP waveform and signal compensation”.

This control governs the use of Interlaced 30hz Reset Pulses in the panel driving algorithm. We will need to clarify this with Samsung’s PDP engineers, but our understanding is that this technique allows for very dark areas of the picture to be refreshed every second line, which in turn allows for considerably deeper blacks, and a hardly noticeable line pattern running through these areas. That’s an excellent trade-off, in our view.

If you press your nose up to the panel and look at it very carefully with a dark screen in a dark room, you’ll be able to see very small darker lines appearing to scroll up the screen at a fast rate.That’s hardly worth mentioning, but it’s interesting because we typically see this same effect on Panasonic plasma TVs (and from our recollection, Pioneer’s Kuro plasmas used it first). In fact, in 2012, we saw it on Panasonic plasmas, but only on the picture modes that prioritised contrast performance over gradation quality. “Ah-ha!” we thought, “is this a feature which reduces gradation in exchange for better contrast performance?” – apparently not. We had a look at just-above-black content on the PS64F8500 with and without the [Black Optimiser] mode on the “Dark Room” setting, and could see no difference in the amount of panel-generated dithering in the image, suggesting that the gradation is the same in both cases. Therefore, we left this feature on at all times, because we could see no reason not to.

It’s very interesting that Samsung felt the need to make this adjustable with a menu control: we searched high and low for this control causing other side-effects in the image, bombarding the 64-inch F8500 with test patterns and real-world content alike… and couldn’t find any significant downsides to turning it on. Perhaps they simply did so to draw attention to the improvement in black level.
A slightly less mundane difference relates to flicker. With the “Dark Room” mode turned on, we occasionally saw some very, very, very gentle flicker in some shades (10-20% grey windows, for example). This was incredibly mild to begin with, but disappeared when the feature was turned off. That is perhaps why control has been given over it. In any case, 99.9% of viewers will notice the richer contrast performance of the “Dark Room” mode more than the barely noticeable flicker, which is why we recommend this setting. The choice is down to the user.

As for our “OLED-like” claim, much of that is ultimately delivered by the PS64F8500′s peak white output. Black level is an important aspect of contrast performance, but it’s only one part. With [Cell Light] set to its peak position of “20″ and [Contrast] set to a level which did not discolour whites or discard peak white details, the PS64F8500 produced 166 cd/m2 on a white test window. During the ANSI checkerboard test, the figure was basically the same, at 163 cd/m2. That is a gigantic amount of light output for a screen this size.

By the way, the “Normal” mode produces a brighter-still picture than “Movie”, with ANSI white coming in at a dazzling 197 cd/m2 (blacks stay the same). This mode denies you access to the 10p White Balance control, but we found the PS64F8500′s greyscale quality (after calibration) to be totally sufficient with only 2-point adjustments made, so this is no loss. The “Custom” [Colour Space] is shared between modes on the same input, however. In any case, we just stuck with the “Movie” mode since it was more than bright enough already. In fact, given that we normally adjust HDTVs to peak white output of 120 cd/m2, the Samsung PS64F8500 marked the first time in a while where we had to reduce a plasma TV’s luminance controls to attain this. That’s just for our own testing, though – we recommend home users set the television up to a level that’s comfortable for them.

Samsung offers two controls to adjust peak white output: [Cell Light] and [Contrast]. The two produce a very similar result, although [Contrast] operates at the video processing level. Therefore, during calibration, [Contrast] should first be reduced (we only had to do it by a few clicks) so that near-white details are not crushed our or discoloured. From there, [Cell Light] can be adjusted to reduce screen light output, if necessary.

There has been some discussion as to which control is best used to reduce light output: for example, is it best to ignore [Cell Light], leaving it at full and reduce [Contrast] if a less bright picture is necessary? Or leave [Contrast] set and reduce [Cell Light]? The latter is the best way, as far as we can tell. Examine a gradient ramp and try reducing both controls and you’ll see that, as you’d expect, adjusting the [Contrast] control creates a small amount of banding due to the fact that this is a digital video processing adjustment (the same, or worse, would happen on any other brand’s HDTV, by the way) whereas the [Cell Light] control appears to be a more direct control over the panel driving, once the signal is out of the hands of the main video processing steps. Samsung’s video processing operates at a high bit depth (higher than the 8-bit sources available to consumers) so the banding is minimal, but it’s still best to avoid shifting levels around at all.
So, scientific testing reveals that Samsung has made yet another huge improvement to both ends of the contrast performance spectrum on the PS64F8500. It has astonishingly deep blacks, and whites that are insanely bright for a plasma display of this screen size. It’s a serious achievement, and it means that when both ends of the contrast spectrum are taken into account, Samsung is in first place ahead of Panasonic.
post #4 of 9
No. No I'm not wrong. I said most LIKED the VT60 more, and multiple professional calibrators have said that the f8500 and VT50 look almost identical side-by-side.
Besides, the Samsung can't beat it in contrast ratio with an ANSI pattern, which is all that really matters. Even the last sentence you bolded says as much.

Here's what the ZT60 looks like though

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Panasonic-TX-P60ZT65B-P60ZT60-ZT65-60-Inch-3D-Plasma-Television_525/Test_Results.html

Quote:
After a suitable period of running in and using our Klein K-10 meter we measured the black level on the P60ZT65 at 0.001 cd/m2 in all three primary viewing
Quote:
ANSI contrast ratio was a superb 20,333:1


The Samsung can't even muster an ANSI contrast ratio that matches the VT50, which did 12,000 at last years VE shootout.

http://www.tweaktv.com/in-dspth-hdtv-reviews/preliminary-review-of-samsungs-new-pn60f8500-plasma.html

Quote:
"I measured the PN64F8500, and got a slightly higher contrast ratio of 8500:1"


Everyone from CNET to all of the pro's on AVSforum/HDJ are saying that the VT60 is better at this point. The samsung can measure similar black level's and better brightness, but not at the same time. The VE shootout is this weekend. If the F8500 beats the ZT60, I'll give you a trillion dollars. If they even include the VT60, I would imagine that it won't beat that either.
Edited by ttnuagmada - 5/7/13 at 12:39am
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post #5 of 9
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

No. No I'm not wrong. I said most LIKED the VT60 more, and multiple professional calibrators have said that the f8500 and VT50 look almost identical side-by-side.
Besides, the Samsung can't beat it in contrast ratio with an ANSI pattern, which is all that really matters. Even the last sentence you bolded says as much.

Here's what the ZT60 looks like though

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Panasonic-TX-P60ZT65B-P60ZT60-ZT65-60-Inch-3D-Plasma-Television_525/Test_Results.html

The Samsung can't even muster an ANSI contrast ratio that matches the VT50, which did 12,000 at last years VE shootout.

http://www.tweaktv.com/in-dspth-hdtv-reviews/preliminary-review-of-samsungs-new-pn60f8500-plasma.html
Everyone from CNET to all of the pro's on AVSforum/HDJ are saying that the VT60 is better at this point. The samsung can measure similar black level's and better brightness, but not at the same time. The VE shootout is this weekend. If the F8500 beats the ZT60, I'll give you a trillion dollars. If they even include the VT60, I would imagine that it won't beat that either.

Read the HDTV UK review again. HDTV UK states that the Samsung F8500 Plasma has much better contrast than the VT60. The blacks are pretty much equal, while the brightness of the F8500 is the best ever for plasma. VT60 has poor brightness when compared to the rest, and even compared to last generation Panasonics. The brightness of the VT60 was the biggest disappointment.

Comparing the Samsung F8500 to the Panasonic VT50 is a joke. The VT50 didn't come close to the Kuro in terms of black levels. The F8500 surpasses the Kuro. Get the logic here?

You can post rubbish from CNET all you like, but HDTV UK is the most reliable source for comparing TV sets.

Also the ANSI contrast ratio measurement
post #6 of 9
Thats the European VT60. The euro models are always dimmer. Go read hard numbers from professional calibrators, like the ones I just slapped you in the face with, which you completely ignored. You also ignored the fact that the samsung cannot produce those black levels on anything other than a solid black screen. Your review also produces no actual contrast numbers and its also the only review claiming that the samsung beats Kuro blacks. Multiple PROFESSIONAL calibrators have said that the f8500 and VT50 are indistinguishable side by side. Also, CNET has long had reputable tv reviews. Go go avsforum or hdj or something, this stuff is all out there for you to read yourself. The f8500 was reviewed for the first time almost 2 months ago. You live under a rock. Wait for the shootout this weekend. You'll see what's up.
Edited by ttnuagmada - 5/8/13 at 1:30am
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post #7 of 9
Great tv for films, not so much gaming with its high input lag i was on this tv but with input lag issues it's a no go for me as racing games is where its at for me and my e6500 is very low :'(.

Blooming lovely tv though smile.gif
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post #8 of 9
ttnuagmada

you know your stuff thumb.gif


Also: 0.001 cd/m2 drool.gif


The take aways from this for me is that its great that a massive company like Samsung is still making plasma TV's and also that TV image quality has not really progressed for 5 years since Kuro it reached a pinnacle when displaying 1080p images. Until OLED is here they still reign supreme.
Edited by Pip Boy - 5/16/13 at 2:54am
post #9 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

No. No I'm not wrong. I said most LIKED the VT60 more, and multiple professional calibrators have said that the f8500 and VT50 look almost identical side-by-side.
Besides, the Samsung can't beat it in contrast ratio with an ANSI pattern, which is all that really matters. Even the last sentence you bolded says as much.

Here's what the ZT60 looks like though

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Panasonic-TX-P60ZT65B-P60ZT60-ZT65-60-Inch-3D-Plasma-Television_525/Test_Results.html

The Samsung can't even muster an ANSI contrast ratio that matches the VT50, which did 12,000 at last years VE shootout.

http://www.tweaktv.com/in-dspth-hdtv-reviews/preliminary-review-of-samsungs-new-pn60f8500-plasma.html
Everyone from CNET to all of the pro's on AVSforum/HDJ are saying that the VT60 is better at this point. The samsung can measure similar black level's and better brightness, but not at the same time. The VE shootout is this weekend. If the F8500 beats the ZT60, I'll give you a trillion dollars. If they even include the VT60, I would imagine that it won't beat that either.

I'm here to collect the trillion dollars on behalf of Koehler

Lmao

051613_Shootout-Results_600x760.jpg
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