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Peltier/TEC Hybrid Water Cooling - Page 3

post #21 of 267
So, if I read right, you use two different TEC / waterblock combo, one on all the time, and the other as needed? Nice!

I always enjoy reading TEC cooling related articles and your use of the TRUE reminded me of this project over at XS. Two TRUEs used to cool a two TEC setup on one CPU. It actually worked quite well.

Made me think that a similar approach could be used in your hybrid system. Just make the hot plate and cold plates of the size needed to hold two matching coolers and two matching water blocks, then power the second one only when the heat load was increased (or is that even an option if they are together). Since your approach isn't restriced to the space over a CPU socket, the hot plate could be slightly larger than the one used by the fella over at XS, allowing for a change in heat sink orientation so that you could use dual fans on both HS for better cooling.

An interesting comment was made somewhere in that XS thread and that was that a solid (non-heatpipe) heatsink would actually work better, at there comes a point where the cooling capabilities of the heatpipes max out, whereas that didn't happen with something like a larger non-heatpipe heatsink. Any thoughts on this?

Here is a link to the project thread, if anyone is interested:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?183509-TRUE-TEC-Module-%28with-pics%29&highlight=TRUE+TEC

Some pics from that thread:







Another question relative to the need to modify the water blocks...would a GPU FC block lend itself to this use, instead of a CPU block?
Edited by Reefa_Madness - 5/14/13 at 10:08am
post #22 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxrena View Post

HT off... all right. Actually the sever heatsinks Krow used also have heatpipes. He has a TEC controller and one of his goal to lower the cost, so basically he doesn't need the best air cooler.
Now it's quite clear to me what you are doing. Nice thinking on modding the water blocks to use full base. I know that Apogee XT works well with 50mms, having used it on pelts myself.
Those TECs from Frozencpu are 127 couplers, model# 12726. They are quite common on ebay. Take a look at http://www.customthermoelectric.com/ if you haven't. They have a large selections.
BTW what air coolers are you using?
Now you only need a nice controller to lower idle power consumption wink.gif

Just sharing some facts;

My battery backup system has a wattage load readout at 12vdc a single peltier is using 200w both together 400w, if I was giving it the 15.4vdc it is spec'd for, it would be pulling the 245w specs.

When my setup is idling and I'm surfing the net and posting such as this the one peltier engaged is maintaining a reservoir water temperature of 16c, I maintain an ambient room temperature in my office of 23c which is around 73f and comfortable.

The 16c water temperature is 7c below the ambient which yields a 20c CPU idle temperature.

Idle power consumption could definitely be improved upon!

The website you linked is where I bought my channeled 3" x 3" x 7/8" copper water block, which is presently shelved and a longer story than I really want to go into, it is not in use and it falls under a lesson learned the hard way.

I am using a Thermalright TRUE, and the second air cooler is a Xigmatek S1283.

I honestly did not expect the Xiggy to do the job but was pleasantly surprised by it's performance, I had tested various coolers to see what would and would not work, so anyone wanting to duplicate this type cooling could do it as cheap as possible, presently Newegg is selling the Xigmatek GaiaSD1283 for $19.99, I bought 4 of them.

Yeah I know! Crazy! smile.gif But I have future plans, I am not through by a long shot! smile.gif

The air coolers that have failed to do the job so far are the original Tuniq Tower, and a solid copper Cooljag OAK-DE 2U Server CPU Cooler w 60mm fan.
post #23 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefa_Madness View Post

So, if I read right, you use two different TEC / waterblock combo, one on all the time, and the other as needed? Nice!

I always enjoy reading TEC cooling related articles and your use of the TRUE reminded me of this project over at XS. Two TRUEs used to cool a two TEC setup on one CPU. It actually worked quite well.

Made me think that a similar approach could be used in your hybrid system. Just make the hot plate and cold plates of the size needed to hold two matching coolers and two matching water blocks, then power the second one only when the heat load was increased (or is that even an option if they are together). Since your approach isn't restriced to the space over a CPU socket, the hot plate could be slightly larger than the one used by the fella over at XS, allowing for a change in heat sink orientation so that you could use dual fans on both HS for better cooling.

An interesting comment was made somewhere in that XS thread and that was that a solid (non-heatpipe) heatsink would actually work better, at there comes a point where the cooling capabilities of the heatpipes max out, whereas that didn't happen with something like a larger non-heatpipe heatsink. Any thoughts on this?

Here is a link to the project thread, if anyone is interested:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?183509-TRUE-TEC-Module-%28with-pics%29&highlight=TRUE+TEC

Another question relative to the need to modify the water blocks...would a GPU FC block lend itself to this use, instead of a CPU block?

Interesting thread link, thanks for the link and interest.

I would hate to hear that thing running with those 2 120mm x 38mm cooling fans mounted to the TRUEs, that's some serious cooling fans.

Regarding the full coverage GPU water block being able to be used, it would have taken a dual GPU block.

That's a good question, I know that modding 2 XSPC Rasa blocks is cheaper, I think Performancepcs has them on sale right now for $45.00 or so.

Also the mounting of the heatpipe coolers to the water block itself is a much easier task when they are already socket fitted for each other, it's easier to assemble together and get the clamping pressure needed.

The copper base of the XSPC Rasa is a perfect fit for the cold side of a 50mm x 50mm peltier, the only problem is modifying the water block for increased flow through the block to pick up the maximum cold transfer from the base.
Edited by OCAddict - 5/16/13 at 3:59am
post #24 of 267
==--
Puck, what do you do about condensation?

I made my own totally asskick TEC cooler a few years ago. It promptly froze my CPU (good) and killed my MB with water (bad).

I tried it again with the a new MB tilted a little more than 90º so the water dripped off the waterblock onto the table, but that had other problems (like water running off the table). I haven't tried it since, and no one seems to make watercooled TEC solutions anymore.

A long time ago, I embedded the entire system in a 55-gal trash bag with one end over a window A/C. That worked great, but the massive outer surface of the trash bag collected water and there was no way to make it run into one place. And in the winter, it also made a pool of water on the floor.

I thought of embedding the CPU and cold plate in silicon sealant, but that connects the two for all time. Plus, the thing would probably reach thermodynam equil and become just as cold as the plate embedded in it.

--faye
post #25 of 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by FayeKane View Post

==--
Puck, what do you do about condensation?

I made my own totally asskick TEC cooler a few years ago. It promptly froze my CPU (good) and killed my MB with water (bad).

I tried it again with the a new MB tilted a little more than 90º so the water dripped off the waterblock onto the table, but that had other problems (like water running off the table). I haven't tried it since, and no one seems to make watercooled TEC solutions anymore.

A long time ago, I embedded the entire system in a 55-gal trash bag with one end over a window A/C. That worked great, but the massive outer surface of the trash bag collected water and there was no way to make it run into one place. And in the winter, it also made a pool of water on the floor.

I thought of embedding the CPU and cold plate in silicon sealant, but that connects the two for all time. Plus, the thing would probably reach thermodynam equil and become just as cold as the plate embedded in it.

--faye
Go to the top of our forum page and click on TEC Essentials Thread, one pretty good guide there also go to the phase change forum. I'm sure there is a lot of discussion on the subject, if you see " Elloquin's " insulating guide it is excellent to go to. Will be doing my board in the next few weeks for sub-zero temps with my Main Tec rig. thumb.gif
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post #26 of 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by FayeKane View Post

==--
Puck, what do you do about condensation?

I made my own totally asskick TEC cooler a few years ago. It promptly froze my CPU (good) and killed my MB with water (bad).

I tried it again with the a new MB tilted a little more than 90º so the water dripped off the waterblock onto the table, but that had other problems (like water running off the table). I haven't tried it since, and no one seems to make watercooled TEC solutions anymore.

A long time ago, I embedded the entire system in a 55-gal trash bag with one end over a window A/C. That worked great, but the massive outer surface of the trash bag collected water and there was no way to make it run into one place. And in the winter, it also made a pool of water on the floor.

I thought of embedding the CPU and cold plate in silicon sealant, but that connects the two for all time. Plus, the thing would probably reach thermodynam equil and become just as cold as the plate embedded in it.

--faye

I insulated my motherboard using Art eraser, Dielectric Grease in the socket, a little bit of foam sheet, and some shop towels. Was a dirty and annoying job, but important. I actually didn't insulate the TOP of my block well enough at first since I didn't think it would get cold enough to condense, but I guess the bolts or something got cold and dripped onto my then brand new 7970 causing lockups and artifacts. Corroded a little resistor on the back of the card that actually popped off while cleaning it, but the card still works exactly the same and still OC's great. Was a reminder of just how important proper insulation is.

The picture I posted of the block is when I first got it and was running the dew point monitoring condensation controller. I later insulated the board and pulled the temp probe on the controller so it targets 0c at all times instead of worrying about the dew point.
Edited by Puck - 5/20/13 at 7:04am
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post #27 of 267
Thread Starter 
Dealing with condensation was the very reason I chose not to direct mount the peltier to the CPU.

As long as I am above an 8c water temperature in the reservoir, condensation is not even in the thought processes.

@ Puck, Has there been any known instances of ice forming under the heat spreader lid?
post #28 of 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCAddict View Post

Dealing with condensation was the very reason I chose not to direct mount the peltier to the CPU.

As long as I am above an 8c water temperature in the reservoir, condensation is not even in the thought processes.

@ Puck, Has there been any known instances of ice forming under the heat spreader lid?

Not that I know of...I did insulate the socket and bottom of the CPU, but not under the IHS. I figure if its air tight then it would be just as cold as the IHS in there and no condensation should form. At least it worked fine for me, but I only had my TEC set to hit 0C and never below it.

The Phase Change section may be a better place to ask that.
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post #29 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post

Not that I know of...I did insulate the socket and bottom of the CPU, but not under the IHS. I figure if its air tight then it would be just as cold as the IHS in there and no condensation should form. At least it worked fine for me, but I only had my TEC set to hit 0C and never below it.

The Phase Change section may be a better place to ask that.

I was concerned after seeing some of the delidding going on with the Ivy bridge CPUs as apparently the sealing does not go all the way around the lid, I guess so the thing could breath and not build heat pressure?

Under those circumstances the CPU has air equalization from the outside to the inside along with any humidity in the environment.

Most extreme overclocking with LN2 and such have already accepted the fact that the CPU is sacrificial in the first place because LN2 is not a daily 24/7 cooling solution it is for benching glory. (Just My Opinion)

I wasn't sure what you may have already encountered with direct peltier mounting on heat spreader type of CPUs.

Apparently under the hood of the Ivy there's not anything to short out so even if ice formed and then melted under the lid it would not hurt anything.

My peltier/waterblock insulated reservoir setup is a 24/7 cooling solution, granted it does not take advantage of the extreme below zero cold a peltier can deliver, but it basically milks what is needed to have a dependable below ambient cooling far below any traditional radiator loop can provide.

I do have future plans of extending this cooling to cooling the GPUs on their own cooling loop, as my GPUs are presently being radiator cooled.

I am interested in any shared knowledge you wish to share that may be of value to my setup in future experimentation staying above 0c.

Thank you! Ryan
Edited by OCAddict - 5/25/13 at 5:03am
post #30 of 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCAddict View Post

As long as I am above an 8c water temperature in the reservoir, condensation is not even in the thought processes.

Just a friendly remainder, you may have run it fine at 8C for a while, but It is not safe to assume it's safe for the long run. Dew temperature can rise above 8C in south California. For example right now it's 14C in LA according to weather station.
I have built dew temperature tracking controller for TEC and to be honest, without real time measurement of dew temp it's not safe to run TEC below ambient for 24/7 without insulation. A lot depends on weather. In rainy days, dew temp can be as high as air temperature.smile.gif
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