Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Specialized Cooling › Peltiers / TEC › Peltier/TEC Hybrid Water Cooling
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Peltier/TEC Hybrid Water Cooling - Page 22

post #211 of 267
Here is a comparison shot of DICE!






The MB had 1/8" thick coating of ICE in spots, no issues at all, as long as its still getting cold.
Edited by mllrkllr88 - 7/5/16 at 9:45pm
24/7 BENCH
(9 items)
 
  
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
LGA115x: i7 7700K, G3258,  LGA775:All E8xxx, Q/E6600, +50 others Z270X SOC, Z170M OCF, Z97 OCF, BlackOps, E-Power, G-Power, H-Power...WTB A-Power 
RAMCoolingCoolingPower
HYKO, PSC, MFR, BBSE, B-DIE Kingpin Venom 6.66 2x360 RAD Custom Loop Seasonic Prime Platinum 1200W 
Case
Dimastech Easy V3.0 
  hide details  
Reply
24/7 BENCH
(9 items)
 
  
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
LGA115x: i7 7700K, G3258,  LGA775:All E8xxx, Q/E6600, +50 others Z270X SOC, Z170M OCF, Z97 OCF, BlackOps, E-Power, G-Power, H-Power...WTB A-Power 
RAMCoolingCoolingPower
HYKO, PSC, MFR, BBSE, B-DIE Kingpin Venom 6.66 2x360 RAD Custom Loop Seasonic Prime Platinum 1200W 
Case
Dimastech Easy V3.0 
  hide details  
Reply
post #212 of 267
I think you've stumbled across one of the peculiarities of TEC's, which is they actually prefer to be controlled by current rather than voltage. ie for the delta t that your heat load is allowing the TEC to achieve it will run at a certain current, and it will vary the voltage to maintain that current (only with a variable dc psu). It is kind of funny though that it is only pulling ~9 amps when you have allowed it to use up to 15v 30a. It goes to show though just how ordinary the generic ebay tecs can be, i should measure the amperage of my 12715's at 12v fixed and see how close they are to the claims. I've always suspected they needed to be de-rated compared to higher quality brand name TEC's but I didn't think by that much, your TEC should be pulling more than 11 amps at 12v, closer to 12 if your dT is about 30*c. maybe the effect of the internal resistance of the TEC is larger than I expected. perhaps these lower quality tecs have higher resistance than brand name ones
Edited by LiamG6 - 7/5/16 at 9:50pm
post #213 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mllrkllr88 View Post

Got my memory cooler up and running. Pretty crappy results so far but I did manage to validate 3202Mhz DDR3: http://valid.x86.fr/jqmbqe Its a weak TEC apparently only drawing 9.43A @ 11.8V. The PSU is set to 15v and capable of 30A+ in parallel mode (which it is) but it draws what it will.


OH...well I answered my earlier question. My 360X2 loop handles the heat output just fine and it runs just barely over ambient. It goes CPU > TEC > PUMP > 360 > 360 > CPU and yea, no problems with CPU temp so it seems I was right biggrin.gif

What water block is that you're using on the memory cooler?
post #214 of 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCAddict View Post

What water block is that you're using on the memory cooler?

Its a really cheap and really crappy old AMD block. I don't know anything about it other than its total junk, but it does indeed work. Its safe to say I want a new one rolleyes.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamG6 View Post

I think you've stumbled across one of the peculiarities of TEC's, which is they actually prefer to be controlled by current rather than voltage. ie for the delta t that your heat load is allowing the TEC to achieve it will run at a certain current, and it will vary the voltage to maintain that current (only with a variable dc psu). It is kind of funny though that it is only pulling ~9 amps when you have allowed it to use up to 15v 30a. It goes to show though just how ordinary the generic ebay tecs can be, i should measure the amperage of my 12715's at 12v fixed and see how close they are to the claims. I've always suspected they needed to be de-rated compared to higher quality brand name TEC's but I didn't think by that much, your TEC should be pulling more than 11 amps at 12v, closer to 12 if your dT is about 30*c. maybe the effect of the internal resistance of the TEC is larger than I expected. perhaps these lower quality tecs have higher resistance than brand name ones

I guess im not too surprised that my $4.50 free shipping is not quite living up to expectations. 12715 ebay TEC I expected the TEC to draw the current it wanted to from the fairly unlimited supply and have the voltage be fixed (CV mode). It turns out that the TEC doesn't really work in either CV or CC mode as a conventional load would. I suppose in the end I only have a cursory interest in how TEC's work, my goals are purely OC related but it has been fun learning about them.


Moving forward: I have given up on the loop chiller idea completely, but I would like to move forward with the memory cooler since it has been successful. I want to purchase a new TEC for starters, one that is high quality and can really pull the jigawatts. The PSU was getting hot, after running that TEC for about 3 straight hours @9A the back cooling fins on the PSU were 72c, but I think its rated for MUCH more. So maybe a dedicated CC/CV PSU will make it on my list of parts for the future.
24/7 BENCH
(9 items)
 
  
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
LGA115x: i7 7700K, G3258,  LGA775:All E8xxx, Q/E6600, +50 others Z270X SOC, Z170M OCF, Z97 OCF, BlackOps, E-Power, G-Power, H-Power...WTB A-Power 
RAMCoolingCoolingPower
HYKO, PSC, MFR, BBSE, B-DIE Kingpin Venom 6.66 2x360 RAD Custom Loop Seasonic Prime Platinum 1200W 
Case
Dimastech Easy V3.0 
  hide details  
Reply
24/7 BENCH
(9 items)
 
  
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
LGA115x: i7 7700K, G3258,  LGA775:All E8xxx, Q/E6600, +50 others Z270X SOC, Z170M OCF, Z97 OCF, BlackOps, E-Power, G-Power, H-Power...WTB A-Power 
RAMCoolingCoolingPower
HYKO, PSC, MFR, BBSE, B-DIE Kingpin Venom 6.66 2x360 RAD Custom Loop Seasonic Prime Platinum 1200W 
Case
Dimastech Easy V3.0 
  hide details  
Reply
post #215 of 267
Just realized you aren't who I thought you were, I thought you were lmarklar http://www.overclock.net/t/1549736/water-chiller-peltier-cooling-below-ambient-but-above-dew-point-using-a-custom-dew-point-controller/0_100

I would suggest you go to customthermoelectric and look at their standard TEC's, http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs_imax.html pricey, but good quality. I would also look into getting a dedicated server PSU or Meanwell PSU. Meanwell RSP-750-xx can be variable DC with a 2-5.5v DC input to trim the PSU output. Some of the higher voltage TEC's will be much better than the ebay specials so choose your TEC first so you know what voltage you want to aim for. That 15v PSU you have should be fine for benching though. Can you add a fan to the rear heatsink?

This TEC http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs/pdf/19911-5L31-15CQ_spec_sht.pdf at ~15v ~9a has about 3x the amount of Qc as the ebay special you are using and is only 40mm so can use it with your current water block and should get quite a bit colder than your 12715

PS, love the work you did voltmodding those old 8800's, plus all the rest of the OC mods you do. Got any plans for RX480? Derbauer seems to think the card doesn't have much to give
Edited by LiamG6 - 7/6/16 at 5:45pm
post #216 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamG6 View Post

I would suggest you go to customthermoelectric and look at their standard TEC's, http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs_imax.html pricey, but good quality. I would also look into getting a dedicated server PSU or Meanwell PSU. Meanwell RSP-750-xx can be variable DC with a 2-5.5v DC input to trim the PSU output. Some of the higher voltage TEC's will be much better than the ebay specials so choose your TEC first so you know what voltage you want to aim for.

This TEC http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs/pdf/19911-5L31-15CQ_spec_sht.pdf at ~15v ~9a has about 3x the amount of Qc as the ebay special you are using and is only 40mm so can use it with your current water block and should get quite a bit colder than your 12715

I 2nd that suggestion as one of the most critical construction aspects of the peltier is the wires to power it, they have to be the proper gauge wires to support the amperage or they'll overheat to the point the insulation on the wires will melt, plus the attachment point solder has to be properly done.
post #217 of 267
The brand name TEC's still come with inadequate wires unless you actually specify what you want and pay accordingly. In saying that though, as long as you keep the wire short it is fine. I cut the wires on my tec's down to about an inch or two long and then solder on an EC3 connector, then I solder an 6 or 8 pin pci-e or 8 pin EPS to that and it handles ~200w without any troubles.

back to mllrkllr88, how cold do you want to go for the ram? you could stack the TEC's to get a greater dT. The heat load of ram is so small you can probably get a cascaded TEC to some very cold temps. Put the 12715 on the bottom and the Customthermo 19911 TEC on the top, can probably run them both on your 15v PSU and see how cold it gets.
Edited by LiamG6 - 7/7/16 at 10:18pm
post #218 of 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamG6 View Post

I would suggest you go to customthermoelectric and look at their standard TEC's, http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs_imax.html pricey, but good quality. I would also look into getting a dedicated server PSU or Meanwell PSU. Meanwell RSP-750-xx can be variable DC with a 2-5.5v DC input to trim the PSU output. Some of the higher voltage TEC's will be much better than the ebay specials so choose your TEC first so you know what voltage you want to aim for. That 15v PSU you have should be fine for benching though. Can you add a fan to the rear heatsink?

This TEC http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs/pdf/19911-5L31-15CQ_spec_sht.pdf at ~15v ~9a has about 3x the amount of Qc as the ebay special you are using and is only 40mm so can use it with your current water block and should get quite a bit colder than your 12715

PS, love the work you did voltmodding those old 8800's, plus all the rest of the OC mods you do. Got any plans for RX480? Derbauer seems to think the card doesn't have much to give
Good suggestion thanks! I think I will go for one or two of the really high power 40x40 TEC's. My power supply is rated for 30A @ 50V max, but as I found out with my ram project it was really struggling with the single TEC load so I don't trust it anymore and I don't want to burn it up. Surprised you recognized me, you must have been following the 8800 competition, thanks for your kind words. I think the RX480 has a lot to offer and once that thing is uncorked we will see its real potential. Right now they are power throttled because of the cooler, so with better cooling and the power target removed I think we will see some pretty decent things from this card especially considering the price. My budget only allows me to bench old cards, but eventually Ill get my hands on the RX480, even if its just bench and sell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OCAddict View Post

I 2nd that suggestion as one of the most critical construction aspects of the peltier is the wires to power it, they have to be the proper gauge wires to support the amperage or they'll overheat to the point the insulation on the wires will melt, plus the attachment point solder has to be properly done.
Yea good call! The wiring I setup is capable of handling 50A for 'chassis' wiring so it should be more than capable of the TEC I am running. I found it interesting that the wires attached to the TEC are officially not rated to handle the listed specs of the TEC but are exactly tuned to the 'actual' observed power limits. This means that they know the exact performance of the junker TEC in order to build it with the appropriate wire, then over sell the specs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamG6 View Post

The brand name TEC's still come with inadequate wires unless you actually specify what you want and pay accordingly. In saying that though, as long as you keep the wire short it is fine. I cut the wires on my tec's down to about an inch or two long and then solder on an EC3 connector, then I solder an 6 or 8 pin pci-e or 8 pin EPS to that and it handles ~200w without any troubles.

back to OP, how cold do you want to go for the ram? you could stack the TEC's to get a greater dT. The heat load of ram is so small you can probably get a cascaded TEC to some very cold temps. Put the 12715 on the bottom and the Customthermo 19911 TEC on the top, can probably run them both on your 15v PSU and see how cold it gets.
Yea that's sorta the same idea I had for wiring the TEC. I wanted to use Deans connectors for ease of use but it serves the same purpose. Also, CASCADE sounds truly epic +1 thumb.gif It never even crossed my mind to cascade them but it makes perfect sense based on the delta T specs.

As for the temp requirements, well, it seems like you wouldn't need much cold to get incredible performance but that's completely wrong. To really get the most out of hot memory like PSC, you need extreme cold like LN2. When I did my DICE run with PSC I couldn't reach the same results as LN2 with the exact same memory so it basically proves that MOAR cold = MOAR better wink.gif Obviously the TEC is going to be nowhere near even DICE, but that's ok since this will be for pre-extreme cold testing so I don't need to waste hours of dice figuring out limits and such. I suspect that a cascaded TEC system will give me pretty awesome results though! One thing, wouldn't I want the good TEC closer to the memory (bottom), and the garbage TEC on top cooling the good TEC??

As for the power, I want to eventually use an older ATX PSU so I don't burn up my bench top supply as those are expensive to replace. I was thinking of taking an old junker 600W or so supply and ganging up all the 12V lines to power both TEC's for my new cascade system. Once I get this cascade going then I will try out some hot memory like PSC, I was using MFR for the single suicide run I posted above and those produce almost no heat.

Also, I have plans to try out my H100i and see how that works. I suspect this will change the delta T but maybe it will work ok for the cascade system.
24/7 BENCH
(9 items)
 
  
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
LGA115x: i7 7700K, G3258,  LGA775:All E8xxx, Q/E6600, +50 others Z270X SOC, Z170M OCF, Z97 OCF, BlackOps, E-Power, G-Power, H-Power...WTB A-Power 
RAMCoolingCoolingPower
HYKO, PSC, MFR, BBSE, B-DIE Kingpin Venom 6.66 2x360 RAD Custom Loop Seasonic Prime Platinum 1200W 
Case
Dimastech Easy V3.0 
  hide details  
Reply
24/7 BENCH
(9 items)
 
  
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
LGA115x: i7 7700K, G3258,  LGA775:All E8xxx, Q/E6600, +50 others Z270X SOC, Z170M OCF, Z97 OCF, BlackOps, E-Power, G-Power, H-Power...WTB A-Power 
RAMCoolingCoolingPower
HYKO, PSC, MFR, BBSE, B-DIE Kingpin Venom 6.66 2x360 RAD Custom Loop Seasonic Prime Platinum 1200W 
Case
Dimastech Easy V3.0 
  hide details  
Reply
post #219 of 267
re cascading TEC's, its complicated. A TEC is just a heat pump, but it uses a lot of power itself to pump this heat, so, to work effectively, you need a hotside cooling system that handles the heat load of the RAM and the heat that the TEC puts out itself. If you cascade TEC's, the top TEC is effectively your hot side cooling for your bottom TEC, so it needs to handle the heat load of the RAM plus the heat load of the TEC itself, which is roughly its power consumption. So no, you want the weaker or undervolted TEC on the bottom, and you have to size the top TEC to handle the heat load of the RAM + the bottom TEC + some headroom to actually increase your dT. If you are interested in doing this I can help you decide how to go about it.

For instance, just nominal numbers, if you have a heat load of 50w, you size your bottom TEC to have about 50w of Qc at about a 30*c delta (Qmax is at 0*c delta so don't size TEC's based on Qmax, look at the custom thermo charts and aim for 30-40*c dT, probably higher with such low heat load from the RAM), then you add the 50w heatload to the power consumption of the bottom TEC, lets just say its 75w, so 125w total heat load to be pumped by the top TEC, so you want to size your top TEC so it can move 125w at a 30-40*c dT as well, this way each stage of the cascade is moving heat at a very high dT and allows you to get more than 50*c below ambient, with such low heat load from the RAM and perfectly sized TEC's and good hot side cooling you can probably get closer to 80*c dT, which is exactly what you want, considering how easy it is to just slap it on and test to dial in for DICE and LN2 runs.

Let me know the approximate heat load of the PSC ram and I'll see what numbers I can come up with. The H100i is virtually pointless using with the cascaded TEC's, barely enough to use on the undervolted 12715. You would just end up having the hot side of the TEC so far above ambient that you lose your delta. You need to keep the hot side as close to ambient as possible in order to get your delta as far below ambient as possible. Try not to have your hot side more than 5*c above ambient. H100i isn't going to cut it, mainly due to its pump and low flow rate.

Yeah I was following the 8800 comp. I still have my old 8800GTX in a box somewhere. Those volt mods were great!
Edited by LiamG6 - 7/7/16 at 10:05pm
post #220 of 267
mllrkllr88. If I said 1 stick of highly overclocked PSC with 1.75-2v will be in the 5-20w power consumption region would I be right? Lets call it 20w to be on the safe side.

If you were to use this TEC on the bottom as your first stage http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs/pdf/19911-5L31-06CQ_spec_sht.pdf

It has ~20w of Qc at 15v 3.5a and 40*c dT. So 15 x 3.5 = ~52.5w of power consumption plus ~20w heat load, so second stage needs to handle ~75w

This TEC would be a good second stage for that heat load and TEC http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs/pdf/19911-5L31-15CQ_spec_sht.pdf

It has ~75w of Qc at 15v 9a and 30*c dT. So 15 x 9 = ~135w + 75w = 210w. So your hot side water cooling needs to be able to keep 210w within 5*c of ambient. So from cascading the TEC's you have a theoretical dT of 70*c. Minus 5*c for the hot side water temp above ambient, and minus 5-10*c losses through thermal inefficiency of the water blocks/ceramics/copper plates/thermal paste etc. So, theoretically with that setup you could get an actual dT of close to 60*c below ambient. If your TEC's don't perform up to scratch you'll lose a bit more, and also TEC's are less effective the cooler their hot side is, ie if a TEC's hot side is 50*c, it will achieve a greater dT than the same TEC will achieve with the hot side at 27*c. So with your first stage TEC having a hot side temp of about 0*c, it may lose quite a bit of it's dT potential.

Conservatively speaking, you should be able to get 50-60*c below ambient temp with cascaded TEC's and low heat load. Which would also be possible with a single larger higher quality TEC. You have the potential to get a 60-80*c dT with cascaded TEC's depending on how everything behaves at those colder temps and also how high your heat load really is. Is that enough for this to be worthwhile for you?

Did you measure how cold your current setup actually got?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Peltiers / TEC
Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Specialized Cooling › Peltiers / TEC › Peltier/TEC Hybrid Water Cooling