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post #21 of 29
25GB? You serious? My fresh Win7 Ultimate installation takes up 10GB
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post #22 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by rui-no-onna View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by iEATu View Post

You're comparing two SSDs that have about the same speeds. The sequential write at least for both of them is the same. And they are definitely not comparable to the Mushkin Enhanced Chronos or Enhanced Chronos Deluxe which both have double the write IOPS and speed. And for the same price!

Do you always believe what sellers/manufacturers tell you? That OCZ Vertex 3 MAX IOPS is practically the same drive as the Mushkin Enhanced Chronos Deluxe (SF-2281 with Toggle NAND). While advertised maximum is 560/520, you're not going to get that in the real world unless your data consists of all 0's. Theoretically, sequential performance of the OCZ Vertex 3 MAX IOPS should be much faster than the Samsung 840 but as you can see in AS-SSD, they perform very similarly when dealing with highly incompressible data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iEATu View Post

For 60GB I would get this one Mushkin Enhanced Chronos 60GB for $80

I think that JUST for OSes this one would be enough.

Windows 7 can be pretty massive. My winsxs folder alone is at 25GB, I believe. I'd recommend 120/128GB to be safe particularly when you can get those on sale for nearly the same price as 60/64GB versions. Besides, you normally get a considerable jump in performance going from 60/64GB models to 120/128GB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iEATu View Post

I'm not sure which one technically is better of the >240GB SSDs because it's hard to find benchmarks for the mushkin SSDs. even though they seem popular...

Because there's really not much need for it. If you want to know performance of the different Mushkin models, you can just look at similar SandForce drives and performance will be more or less the same.

Mushkin Enhanced Chronos - Asynchronous ONFi NAND (OCZ Agility 3, Corsair Force 3, Patriot Pyro)
Mushkin Enhanced Chronos (Deluxe) MX - Synchronous ONFi NAND (OCZ Vertex 3, Corsair Force GT, Patriot Pyro SE, Kingston HyperX 3K)
Mushkin Enhanced Chronos Deluxe - Toggle-mode DDR NAND (OCZ Vertex 3 MAX IOPS, Corsair Force GS, Patriot Wildfire, SanDisk Extreme)
No I always research more to find out about what I'm buying. I'm just trying to understand the differences between these SSDs. If they are the same why would OCZ and the benchmarks for the sequential write be half the speed?

In this example
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/678?vs=731

For 4k writes there's no difference (not looking at this graph with queue depth of 32), but for larger random writes there is a difference of about 100MB/s which the same with other SSDs with sequential write speeds around 500MB/s from what I remember with benchmarks. For me that is a big difference because I am often reinstalling games on my 128GB SSD because I don't have enough space, or in the case of OP, he might need to transfer videos for editing.
The real world write test was also faster.

Well it's not just performance it's also the better TRIM management or whatever and other longer lasting features.

Ok now I know that at least for the Patriot Wildfire it is not as good as at least some of the others because I remember researching it while buying my Pyro SE. But that might have just been benchmarks. Real world differences were probably negligible. But at least for the last example there should be a difference in write speeds for larger files which is probably more important anyway. You most likely will not have a ton of smaller files.


I found this while looking for something else today.
Support and Q&A for Solid-State Drives
Quote:
Random Writes & Flushes: Your mileage will vary greatly

The differences in sequential write rates are interesting to note, but for most users they won’t make for as notable a difference in overall performance as random writes.
What’s a long time for a random write? Well, an average HDD can typically move 4 KB random writes to its spinning media in 7 to 15 milliseconds, which has proven to be largely unacceptable. As a result, most HDDs come with 4, 8 or more megabytes of internal memory and attempt to cache small random writes rather than wait the full 7 to 15 milliseconds. When they do cache a write, they return success to the OS even though the bytes haven’t been moved to the spinning media. We typically see these cached writes completing in a few hundred microseconds (so 10X, 20X or faster than actually writing to spinning media). In looking at millions of disk writes from thousands of telemetry traces, we observe 92% of 4 KB or smaller IOs taking less than 1 millisecond, 80% taking less than 600 microseconds, and an impressive 48% taking less than 200 microseconds. Caching works!
On occasion, we’ll see HDDs struggle with bursts of random writes and flushes. Drives that cache too much for too long and then get caught with too much of a backlog of work to complete when a flush comes along, have proven to be problematic. These flushes and surrounding IOs can have considerably lengthened response times. We’ve seen some devices take a half second to a full second to complete individual IOs and take 10’s of seconds to return to a more consistently responsive state. For the user, this can be awful to endure as responsiveness drops to painful levels. Think of it, the response time for a single I/O can range from 200 microseconds up to a whopping 1,000,000 microseconds (1 second).
When presented with realistic workloads, we see the worst of the SSDs producing very long IO times as well, as much as one half to one full second to complete individual random write and flush requests. This is abysmal for many workloads and can make the entire system feel choppy, unresponsive and sluggish.

Random Writes & Flushes: Why is this so hard?

For many, the notion that a purely electronic SSD can have more trouble with random writes than a traditional HDD seems hard to comprehend at first. After all, SSDs don’t need to seek and position a disk head above a track on a rotating disk, so why would random writes present such a daunting a challenge?
The answer to this takes quite a bit of explaining, Anand’s article admirably covers many of the details. We highly encourage motivated folks to take the time to read it as well as this fine USENIX paper. In an attempt to avoid covering too much of the same material, we’ll just make a handful of points.
Most SSDs are comprised of flash cells (either SLC or MLC). It is possible to build SSDs out of DRAM. These can be extremely fast, but also very costly and power hungry. Since these are relatively rare, we’ll focus our discussion on the much more popular NAND flash based SSDs. Future SSDs may take advantage of other nonvolatile memory technologies than flash.
A flash cell is really a trap, a trap for electrons and electrons don’t like to be trapped. Consider this, if placing 100 electrons in a flash cell constitutes a bit value of 0, and fewer means the value is 1, then the controller logic may have to consider 80 to 120 as the acceptable range for a bit value of 0. A range is necessary because some electrons may escape the trap, others may fall into the trap when attempting to fill nearby cells, etc… As a result, some very sophisticated error correction logic is needed to insure data integrity.
Flash chips tend to be organized in complex arrangements, such as blocks, dies, planes and packages. The size, arrangement, parallelism, wear, interconnects and transfer speed characteristics of which can and do vary greatly.
Flash cells need to be erased before they can be written. You simply can’t trust that a flash cell has no residual electrons in it before use, so cells need to be erased before filling with electrons. Erasing is done on a large scale. You don’t erase a cell; rather you erase a large block of cells (like 128 KB worth). Erase times are typically long -- a millisecond or more.
Flash wears out. At some point, a flash cell simply stops working as a trap for electrons. If frequently updated data (e.g., a file system log file) was always stored in the same cells, those cells would wear out more quickly than cells containing read-mostly data. Wear leveling logic is employed by flash controller firmware to spread out writes across a device’s full set of cells. If done properly, most devices will last years under normal desktop/laptop workloads.
It takes some pretty clever device physicists and some solid engineering to trap electrons at high speed, to do so without errors, and to keep the devices from wearing out unevenly. Not all SSD manufacturers are as far along as others in figuring out how to do this well.

One of the main differences between the SSDs is the IOPS, and I wonder how much of a difference it makes when starting up the OS with multiple programs. So for reading a bunch of small random data it would be useful to have a higher IOPS which makes sense to be good for the OS because there are so many small file reads and writes all of the time.
http://www.overclock.net/t/913216/does-higher-iops-help-in-games-and-typical-usage/0_20#post_11985448
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post #23 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by phaseshift View Post

Thinking of getting an SSD for dual booting windows and mountain lion. What size should I get, I have 2 TB Western digital as well for my storage needs.

Thinking of getting the Samsung 840 just don't know what size I should get. I do gaming, regular user task and some video editing.
I think it all boils down to the amount of money you have/want to spent on new hardware. I personally went for two new 256GB OCZ Vector's after having spent a few months with two 256GB Samsung Pro's which degraded too much for my taste. These days I use them on my Apricorn Solo X2 and that gives me a ~5 second boot (Legacy) and a ~2 second boot with my RevoUEFI and OSX Mountain Lion 10.8

Size wise I'd say that 60 GB is good for both OS X and Windows, but I'd take one for each OS only.

Have you considered to setup a Fusion for Mountain Lion?
post #24 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post

25GB? You serious? My fresh Win7 Ultimate installation takes up 10GB

That's after 1 year usage and all the crud that goes along with it. My first SSD is a Kingston SSDNow V 40GB (rebadged Intel X25-V) and the only thing I installed on that SSD was Windows, Microsoft Office and Visual Studio. The rest of my stuff, I had on a couple of 2TB mechanical drives. Needless to say, 40GB was quite stifling and performance became quite abysmal on the occasions the SSD dropped to 1~2GB free space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iEATu View Post

No I always research more to find out about what I'm buying. I'm just trying to understand the differences between these SSDs. If they are the same why would OCZ and the benchmarks for the sequential write be half the speed?

Looks like you haven't done your research on SandForce controllers. If so, you would already know the answer to this question. SandForce uses real-time data compression primarily to preserve NAND life. A side effect of that is you also get faster writes when dealing with highly compressible data. Manufacturer specifications are usually based on ATTO Disk Benchmark which uses highly compressible data. If you benchmark using AS-SSD or CrystalDiskMark (incompressible data), the sequential write for SandForce drives will be lower than manufacturer specifications (how much lower depends on the type of NAND used). Try running AS-SSD or CDM on your Patriot Pyro SE and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iEATu View Post

In this example
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/678?vs=731

For 4k writes there's no difference (not looking at this graph with queue depth of 32), but for larger random writes there is a difference of about 100MB/s which the same with other SSDs with sequential write speeds around 500MB/s from what I remember with benchmarks. For me that is a big difference because I am often reinstalling games on my 128GB SSD because I don't have enough space, or in the case of OP, he might need to transfer videos for editing.
The real world write test was also faster.

Real world write test might be faster but if you look at the total time, the difference between the Samsung 840 and Plextor M5 Pro isn't that big. And you've just pointed out a benefit for buying higher capacity instead of higher performance: less reinstalling. tongue.gif

Heavy Workload 2011 - Disk Busy Time
Total Disk Busy Time in Seconds - Lower is Better
Samsung 840 250GB: 740.3s (12:20.3)
Plextor M5 Pro 256GB: 678.4s (11:18.4)
difference: 61.9s

Light Workload 2011 - Disk Busy Time
Total Disk Busy Time in Seconds - Lower is Better
Samsung 840 259GB: 125.9 (2:5.9)
Plextor M5 Pro 256GB: 135.9 (2:15.9)
difference: 10s

That's just a little over a minute difference for the heavy benchmark and the Samsung even beats the Plextor in the light benchmark. When you take into perspective that the benches are worth several hours of actual manual labor (unless you're The Flash or Superman or something and can work really, really, really fast), all that shows is the SSD is likely to be waiting for you rather than you waiting for the SSD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iEATu View Post

Ok now I know that at least for the Patriot Wildfire it is not as good as at least some of the others because I remember researching it while buying my Pyro SE. But that might have just been benchmarks. Real world differences were probably negligible. But at least for the last example there should be a difference in write speeds for larger files which is probably more important anyway. You most likely will not have a ton of smaller files.

I do believe the Wildfire is supposed to be faster than the Pyro SE. As for not having a ton of smaller files, you'd be surprised. You probably have a lot more of those on your computer than you do really large files and they're the ones accessed by the operating system and your programs more often. Unless you're copying 1080p Blu-ray rips from SSD to SSD (or similar task), you won't really notice the higher sequential write speed. To be honest, real world difference is negligible between even a lowly OCZ Agility 2 (SATA2) and a Samsung 840 Pro (SATA3) so really, just buy whatever fits your budget (do avoid SSDs with really crappy controllers like the Crucial v4, though).

Quote:
Originally Posted by iEATu View Post

I found this while looking for something else today.
Support and Q&A for Solid-State Drives
One of the main differences between the SSDs is the IOPS, and I wonder how much of a difference it makes when starting up the OS with multiple programs. So for reading a bunch of small random data it would be useful to have a higher IOPS which makes sense to be good for the OS because there are so many small file reads and writes all of the time.
http://www.overclock.net/t/913216/does-higher-iops-help-in-games-and-typical-usage/0_20#post_11985448

IOPS matter but you have to take into account the queue depth, too. In general, you're unlikely to see queue depths higher than 8. Even if a drive is advertised for 80,000 IOPS, that's essentially pointless if you need to have a queue depth of 64 to reach it. Here's an interesting analysis of the IO Profile for some games:

SSD Performance In Crysis 2, World Of Warcraft, And Civilization V
Exploring SSD Performance In Battlefield 3, F1 2011, And Rift


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pike View Post

I think it all boils down to the amount of money you have/want to spent on new hardware.

This pretty much.
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post #25 of 29
Thread Starter 
So I found a Samsung 840 Series 250gb for 140.00 cheapest I found, do you guys think this is a good deal?
post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by rui-no-onna View Post

...
Windows 7 can be pretty massive. My winsxs folder alone is at 25GB, I believe...

Don't you just hate that winsxs folder, which makes pagefile look like a great implementation? Imagine if it was cached in an ISRT installation.

I've got one old Win 7 installation that is approaching 20GB total, with most things stored on other drives. You clearly use your PC quite a bit, so the 'sxs folder is bloated, that is Windows fault of course.
post #27 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by phaseshift View Post

So I found a Samsung 840 Series 250gb for 140.00 cheapest I found, do you guys think this is a good deal?

Yup, that's a good deal. Other drives you might find in that price range are the SanDisk Extreme 240GB and Intel 330/335 240GB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by parsec View Post

Don't you just hate that winsxs folder, which makes pagefile look like a great implementation? Imagine if it was cached in an ISRT installation.

I've got one old Win 7 installation that is approaching 20GB total, with most things stored on other drives. You clearly use your PC quite a bit, so the 'sxs folder is bloated, that is Windows fault of course.

Yeah. The thing is the pagefile is easy enough to manage. You can set it to a fixed size so it doesn't take up a good chunk of your storage. With the winsxs folder, even after you've uninstalled programs, crud is still left behind in the component store. I think another reason why my 'sxs folder is so massive is because that PC was built pre-7 SP1. I believe there's a way to embed SP1 onto the system so the uninstall files don't take up all that space. I'm gonna have to do that one of these days. Unfortunately, just don't have time to tinker. Right now, I'm down to 800MB free space on my 120GB SSD (I think around half of the used space are my scratch files). Thank goodness I overprovision or I probably would have filled up the SSD enough to make the system crawl. Had that happen on a Kingston 40GB. Performance was worse than a WD Green 1TB HDD.
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post #29 of 29

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/631?vs=678

Better? Sure. Way superior? I don't see it. Granted, the Samsung has TLC NAND but even with 50GB NAND writes per day, it'll still be good for over 10 years. For an extra $10-15, I'd be willing to bite. For $170 (extra $30)? I think I'd rather wait for a sale on one of the Pros if performance is what I'm after.
Garnet
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Garnet
(11 items)
 
Lucifiel
(13 items)
 
Metatron
(13 items)
 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Intel Core i5-3450S Intel DQ77KB Corsair 16GB DDR3 1600 SO-DIMM Samsung 830 256GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Crucial m4 256 mSATA Samsung 840 500GB Intel BXHTS1155LP Windows 7 Ultimate x64 
KeyboardCaseMouse
Logitech K800 Lian Li PC-Q05B Logitech M570 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-860 Gigabyte GA-H55N-USB3 EVGA GTX 460 1GB GDDR5 Kingston 2x4GB DDR3 1333 
Hard DriveOSPowerCase
G.SKILL Phoenix Pro 120GB Windows 7 Ultimate x64 Silverstone ST45SF 450W Silverstone Sugo SG05B 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-860 Biostar TH55B HD MSI GT 240 1GB GDDR5 Kingston 2x2GB DDR3 1333 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
Intel X25-M 120GB Windows 7 Ultimate x86 Samsung 22" Antec EA-380D 
Case
Rosewill R101-P-BK 
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Reply
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