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[VC] NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 Modified Into GeForce GTX 770 - Page 8

post #71 of 164
Hmmm, 7 Ghz memory ? That might solve part of the performance problems at very high resolutions. Together with 4 GB of VRAM and this might make an interesting choice after all for someone who needs to upgrade and can't wait for Maxwell.

By the way, 7 Ghz is the max GDDR5 VRAM speed available isn't it ? But coupled with the OC headroom that is most probably included, I wonder if in the future there is margin for a new official max GGDR5 VRAM speed like 8 Ghz. Is there future in GDDR5 or must the next generation of GPUs rely on a wider memory bus ? The next GDDR standard isn't ready yet, is it ?
 
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post #72 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

I agree with Alatar though. I doubt Nvidia wants GK110 to be a volume seller. They probably don't have the surplus of cut down chips available so by pricing it higher they can control its release better...

That's plausible, but keep in mind that raising the price doesn't necessarily increase profits for nvidia. Now if nvidia is supply constrained, obviously they have to price it where it is regardless of what their profits are.

But if they want to move a product and maximize profit, there are diminishing returns after pricing a product past a certain point. Because for every 1$ higher in price, that lowers the potential buyer base by a certain percentage. Obviously, if they price the GTX 780 at 700$, the percentage of buyers will be less than at 550$.

So the question becomes, do they want to maximize profit, or are they supply constrained? If it is the former, pricing the part in the stratosphere is NOT what they would do. They would do many studies to find the optimum price range of what buyers are willing to pay, which, if it is indeed 20% faster than the current 680 I can state with a fair amount of certainty that not a lot of people would want to pay 650$-700$. You see, you cannot price something high out of arrogance. Nvidia wants to make a profit, and you don't maximize profit by continually raising the price without a ceiling.

This is why i'm stating, having studied economics, that nvidia can't price something sky high out of arrogance. Even if AMD doesn't have a directly competing part. Maximizing profit just does not work like that. However, it is plausible that they are supply constrained due to quadro cards, I don't know. If it is indeed a supply issue due to HPC and quadro cards, they have to price it even if it limits the potential buyer base and lowers overall Geforce profit. (which they would make up in quadro sales, perhaps)
post #73 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfinion View Post

Yes, which is why some of us just roll our eyes and move on.


That is right on the money right there.... It's nothing new, nothing worth debating about...
post #74 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

That's plausible, but keep in mind that raising the price doesn't necessarily increase profits for nvidia. Now if nvidia is supply constrained, obviously they have to price it where it is regardless of what their profits are.

But if they want to move a product and maximize profit, there are diminishing returns after pricing a product past a certain point. Because for every 1$ higher in price, that lowers the potential buyer base by a certain percentage. Obviously, if they price the GTX 780 at 700$, the percentage of buyers will be less than at 550$.

So the question becomes, do they want to maximize profit, or are they supply constrained? If it is the former, pricing the part in the stratosphere is NOT what they would do. They would do many studies to find the optimum price range of what buyers are willing to pay, which, if it is indeed 20% faster than the current 680 I can state with a fair amount of certainty that not a lot of people would want to pay 650$-700$. You see, you cannot price something high out of arrogance. Nvidia wants to make a profit, and you don't maximize profit by continually raising the price without a ceiling.

This is why i'm stating, having studied economics, that nvidia can't price something sky high out of arrogance. Even if AMD doesn't have a directly competing part. Maximizing profit just does not work like that. However, it is plausible that they are supply constrained due to quadro cards, I don't know. If it is indeed a supply issue due to HPC and quadro cards, they have to price it even if it limits the potential buyer base and lowers overall Geforce profit. (which they would make up in quadro sales, perhaps)

The entire last paragraph is exactly what is happening. They are making it up in Quadro sales, in fact, I believe that the GK110 Quadros are in very high demand. The only availability of GK110 chips for GeForce are chips that don't make the cut for Quadro cards, and that is likely a very limited supply. Thus, nVidia can price it at whatever they want as long as it sells. If they price it at $500, and 1000 people want to buy it, but they only have 250 chips, they can only sell 250. On the other hand, they increase price to $650, and only 250 people are willing to buy at that price, they still sell out but make significantly more profit.

In the case of the GTX 780, it will be the limited supply that drives prices, not consumer demand.
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post #75 of 164
Not sure why AMD is being frowned upon for releasing a Ghz edition. Intel releases a Core i7 Xtreme edition and sells it for $1,000 but it is within the same series.

You have to remember that many consumers do not know how to overclock and are worried about overclocking.

I read a rumor which said AMD is releasing the 8000 series is a rebrand of the 7000 and if that is true bash them as much as you want.

Don't compared the GTX 400/500/600 to the 700 series because it appears to be a rebrand.

The GTX 470/80 used the GF100 and the 570/80 used the GF110, the 670/680 used the GK104. All of them had different chips while the GTX 770 appears to be using the same GK104 and you're praising nVidia for it?

The GTX 770/80 should be using GK110 but they won't because nVidia wants us to pay a premium and keep their glorious GTX Titan top dog.

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post #76 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

The entire last paragraph is exactly what is happening. They are making it up in Quadro sales, in fact, I believe that the GK110 Quadros are in very high demand. The only availability of GK110 chips for GeForce are chips that don't make the cut for Quadro cards, and that is likely a very limited supply. Thus, nVidia can price it at whatever they want as long as it sells. If they price it at $500, and 1000 people want to buy it, but they only have 250 chips, they can only sell 250. On the other hand, they increase price to $650, and only 250 people are willing to buy at that price, they still sell out but make significantly more profit.

In the case of the GTX 780, it will be the limited supply that drives prices, not consumer demand.

I don't know. Maybe. What you're saying is complete speculation as nobody has hard data to prove this, and nobody has sales data of Quadro cards. Back to my point: believe it or not, you don't maximize profit through raising prices. That never happens, trust me. Now I don't know how well Quadro cards are selling but they're obviously a niche product. Would be fun if we had some concrete data on this, but nvidia doesn't include specific sales numbers in their end of quarter income statement (even the ones separated by consumer/profession/tegra divisions)

That's my point, really. If they want to maximize profit with the 780, I can state with near 99% certainty that 700$ isn't the way to do it. A lot of people think that nvidia has free reign to price how they want if they don't have competition from AMD, and nothing could be further from the truth - There are dedicated economists no doubt working for nvidia who study and determine optimal pricing and profit maximization for these firms, and anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that 500$-600$ would be reasonable for 3GB and a 20% increase on the 780. Even 600$ is REALLY pushing it. 700$? A few people will buy it, but it won't maximize profit for NV at all.

Quadro, I really have no idea how that affects things. What you're saying could be true but there's no way to be sure. It definitely *is* plausible. Heck, using the same chips in the Titan is plausible as well. Who knows. Anyway wink.gif I'll give it a rest since i'm speculating quite a bit myself. We'll have to see what percentage increase the 780 brings, and what price. Can't wait for the 23rd, should be interesting. smile.gif
Edited by xoleras - 5/13/13 at 9:14pm
post #77 of 164
Yeah, no concrete numbers but my gut tells me that Nvidia doesn't have GK110 stock to price the 780 at 580/680 prices...
post #78 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

Why are folks surprised by this? I See nothing wrong at all with the 770. This is no different than the performance differential between the GTX 470 and GTX 570 - with the latter being 15% faster or so. That will be similar with the 670 to the 770.

Both AMD and nvidia have done similar things in the past.

There is nothing wrong with it. Some people will just complain about anything even if it's free.
    
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post #79 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Yeah, no concrete numbers but my gut tells me that Nvidia doesn't have GK110 stock to price the 780 at 580/680 prices...

Not to disagree, but why wouldn't NVIDIA have stock?

28nm is a much more mature process now, and there are no indications of low yields today.

I mean, if NVIDIA was able to deliver 470's & 480's with GF100, while those had really poor yields ( 1.7% in the beginning ), and they were able to deliver 570 ($350) & 580 ($500) with GF110, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to deliver 780's & Titans. It's not like Titans are their hottest seller ( quantity wise ), and they've been collecting failed GK110 Tesla dies for about 8 - 10 months is my guess.

Obviously, pure speculation on my part, I really wish we knew wafer numbers, yield numbers, sales numbers, etc. I would also love to know how much NVIDIA pays per wafer, and or per die, it would make speculating much more fun. smile.gif
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post #80 of 164
Like I said, its just a gut feeling. It's possible GK110 yields are good and fewer failed parts are available for GeForce cards than during the Fermi days. It's a pure guess but it would explain some things (like Titan's unique pricing and categorization).
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