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[itproportal] Secrets of the PlayStation 4: Seriously modified Radeon, turbocharged APU design - Page 4

post #31 of 75
I'm skeptical about the benefits of using a GPU for compute on a console. On a computer you can do some pretty cool things with it, like extra particle effects with physx and decent hair with tressfx. This is done using extra GPU power through.
It would be neat to see these effect on a console, but I'm not sure if there will be enough processing power for compute tasks alongside everything else. How often will consoles be able to do things like run tressfx while running 1080p with a decent frame rate?
Hopefully I'm wrong and devs can do some epic things with this....then do it better on the pc version of the game.
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post #32 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason793 View Post

I'm skeptical about the benefits of using a GPU for compute on a console. On a computer you can do some pretty cool things with it, like extra particle effects with physx and decent hair with tressfx. This is done using extra GPU power through.
It would be neat to see these effect on a console, but I'm not sure if there will be enough processing power for compute tasks alongside everything else. How often will consoles be able to do things like run tressfx while running 1080p with a decent frame rate?
Hopefully I'm wrong and devs can do some epic things with this....then do it better on the pc version of the game.

 

 

band.gifband.gif

 

looking forward to it :)


(and enjoying it on consoles (hoping next Xbox doesn't blow))
 

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post #33 of 75
...
Edited by haxmode - 5/15/13 at 8:55am
post #34 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

snip

It's all well and good that AMD (And Intel) CPUs can get a lot of gains when properly optimized, and yes, a lot of people under-estimate any CPU/APU from AMD here but the fact remains that games tend to lean towards being GPU limited more than anything. That's why I laugh when people try to make out that Intel is so much faster in gaming when outside of SC2 and a handful of other CPU limited games, you're talking a 5fps difference at real world settings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicFrost View Post

Is the performance increase just due to using AVX extensions or is it something else that AMD has done? If it's just using AVX than shouldn't both newer AMD and Intel chips see a similar performance boost seeing how both support AVX?

Both. You can optimize the source for how the CPU (Or GPU) works and recompiling the source code in a way that allows it to use the new instructions can net some pretty significant performance gains.
MS tends to make Windows a bit biased to Intel, hence the whole "Wintel" thing and why an FX-8350 goes from merely beating the i5 3570k in CPU intensive benchmarks on Windows to competing pretty well with the i7 3770k in Linux.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

I would like to know if Intel processors ( SB+ ) see any improvements as well in Gentoo?

Any CPU would, but not as much. Windows is more optimized for Intel than AMD whereas Linux tends to be more fair. Then again, this has been going on even throughout the K8 days and way before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Capitan View Post

I'm excited for any optimization, but even with halving the CPU rendering time to 1:47, even a GTX 460 will still beat it using CUDA, and I'm sure an HD 7850 would even beat that using OpenCL. Even if Jaguar on Gentoo gets the rendering under a minute, it's still behind current API's being used for GPU rendering.

Obviously, because rendering is one of those types of things where GPUs scale well. The optimization applies for anything, even stuff that won't work well for GPUs but it may not be as great of an improvement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

The main concerned I have about the PS4 is that it wont have the GPU grunt to push out 60FPS @ 1080p and still have enough power left for proper AA (FXAA does not count as proper AA). Of course there is still the possibility that the PS4 will have a dedicated AA chip or some other fixed function hardware that lessens the GPU load. Much is still shrouded in mystery.

Assuming memory serves, it's meant to have a chip roughly equivalent to a HD7850 in terms of hardware specs, correct? Obviously faster due to optimization and Sony getting custom parts, but still a HD7850 at stock can play a lot of recent games at max with 4x/8x AA at 1080p, the PS4 will only be faster. I expect to get 1080p and AA for some games at first, but no AA if you're using 3D.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

snip
This is exactly why I want HSA and APUs to take off, even in enthusiast rigs...Have your main discrete GPU do the rendering but the iGPU do all the physics and the like, that way you still get the maximum FPS you can get and the additional eye candy and gameplay fun that much more realistic and in depth physics give.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L36 View Post

I'm pretty sure it was confirmed somewhere that PS4 will be running a heavily modified windows 7 kernel as part of its PS4 OS, not Linux.

Nope, the development kits allow you to use Windows and Visual Studio with some plugins iirc.
Do you really think MS would allow Sony unrestricted access to the Windows Source Code? Or do you really think Sony would take an OS they can't see the source code of from their main competitor? I doubt they'll use Linux though, I believe they used FreeBSD or OpenBSD in the PS3 and I think they'll stick with that.
    
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post #35 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Any CPU would, but not as much. Windows is more optimized for Intel than AMD whereas Linux tends to be more fair. Then again, this has been going on even throughout the K8 days and way before.

That's why I would love to see some 2600K / 3770K / 8350 benchmarks in Windows, than in Gentoo taking advantage of those AVX extensions.

Want to compare how bad the Windows / Intel compiler bias really is.
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post #36 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

Want to compare how bad the Windows / Intel compiler bias really is.
Do it like Agner Fog does it: grab a VIA proc and change the vendorID and run some tests. That's pretty much the only practical solution..
    
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post #37 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

You have to decipher his post.

The spreadsheet he posted is of Windows benchmarks, and he said:
I would like to know if Intel processors ( SB+ ) see any improvements as well in Gentoo?

All compiler for Windows application are already perfectly optimized for Intel Processors, this is AMD which I think still suffers those CPUID biasing.
Well I am not saying Intel won't benefit in Linux, It surely will and it will still be better than FX 8350 (I believe if its just about AVX performance). And obviously this improvement will not be caused by Intel's especially optimized compiler.
Performance improvements will be seen on the Intel side because of AMD's lack of AVX architecture.
Intel CPUs can do two 256-bit AVX operations per clock whereas AMD's both Bulldozer and Piledriver are limited to only one 256-bit AVX operation per clock. (This is to be fixed on Steamroller, they say)
So, technically here AMD FX's AVX is inferior than Intel's AVX. Theoretically Intel AVX is 2x faster and should get you 2x more performance than AMD's AVX.

But if application is AMD FMA3 optimized ONLY (128 bit per core / module = 256 bit per module), it should run twice as fast as its counterparts because no Intel CPU except Haswell supports it.
What sdlvx is getting that superior performance on Linux with 8350 may be due only,
If its FMA, then Intel can not win (except Haswell)
And If its AVX, then I believe Intel will be the only winner (until we see Steamroller, however there will be AVX2 to fight with and I don't know what Improvements it will have per cycle).
Edited by sumitlian - 5/15/13 at 2:47am
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post #38 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason793 View Post

I'm skeptical about the benefits of using a GPU for compute on a console. On a computer you can do some pretty cool things with it, like extra particle effects with physx and decent hair with tressfx. This is done using extra GPU power through.
It would be neat to see these effect on a console, but I'm not sure if there will be enough processing power for compute tasks alongside everything else. How often will consoles be able to do things like run tressfx while running 1080p with a decent frame rate?
Hopefully I'm wrong and devs can do some epic things with this....then do it better on the pc version of the game.


I hope you are wrong - a single hd7970 @ 1080p struggles on most of the recent games that have come out, if you turn up the eye candy that is!

I'm sure the xbox and ps4 will benefit the pc gamer and about time too thumb.gif
post #39 of 75

Interesting.

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post #40 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

That's why I would love to see some 2600K / 3770K / 8350 benchmarks in Windows, than in Gentoo taking advantage of those AVX extensions.

Want to compare how bad the Windows / Intel compiler bias really is.

Just compare the i7 3770k results Phoronix gets vs other sites, unless they've also done a Windows comparison because there's more to it than just that; Linux just uses CPUs especially when 4+ cores are maxed out more efficiently than Windows, that's why a lot of Folders would run SMP in a Linux VM in Windows and still get higher performance than native Windows.

For the most part, they'd both gain quite a bit of performance but the i7 3770k and FX-8350 would be equal at stock with the FX coming in slightly behind when you compare OCed numbers as it loses its clock advantage then.

There's also the stuff sumitlian mentioned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladcrooks View Post

[/B]

I hope you are wrong - a single hd7970 @ 1080p struggles on most of the recent games that have come out, if you turn up the eye candy that is!

I'm sure the xbox and ps4 will benefit the pc gamer and about time too thumb.gif

That's funny because I play at 1080p and my HD7950 seems to be doing fine on a lot of recent games.
    
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