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AMD APU's Good for gaming? (Help) - Page 3

post #21 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

funny how not only your claims dispute tom's, which does get flonky, but also those of legit, hexit, and anandtech among others. . . sorry but you're completely talking out of your hat.

*Cough*

http://www.overclock.net/t/1348596/amd-a10-5700-reviewed-framerates-frametimes-and-playability-uploading-13-2b4-stock/0_20

And will provide any proof you want.
   
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post #22 of 49
i was surprised how well my 2600k ran sc2@1080p on low settings when i sold my video cards so i'd imagine the newer amd apu's should definitely be good. not so sure about bf3 though, didn't try it.
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post #23 of 49
Quote:

oh?

thats a very nice post you have there and honestly my hats off to you for taking the time to do that for the benefit of the community.

as you stated:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

In conclusion, you can see that if you're not too picky about framerates (I know there's people who cannot stand less than 60FPS no matter what), Trinity plays just fine, with results varying with each game. Some can be straight maxed out, some have to be bottomed down in order to play. But so far no game I've played has been straight out unplayable.
Frametimes are, as you have seen, very variable, something I bet has to do with memory bandwidth. As you overclock framerates improve, but frametime differences stay the same, and become worse in some cases, better in others (games that are power starved, and not bandwidth starved).
Overall, I think you cannot ask more out of a platform that costs 250€ complete (board, processor and RAM), and I am pretty surprised that it is actually capable of managing such a performance.
So far, this is it smile.gif I will be adding more benchmarks as I fancy, but Metro 2033, Far Cry 3 and Crysis Warhead will get eventually done. I have to rip my DVDs to ISOs and transfer them to the Trinity, as I've got no ODD.
I take requests, but please note that I do not own most games out there, so there is little I can do in that aspect.
On the next post is the overclocking results!
Thanks for reading folks wink.gif

but that doesn't come close to back your claim of:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

Yes, you heard it right. My A10-5700 nearly matches an i3-3220 without a dedicated GPU in power consumption. And its performance is brutally superior.
because you didn't test for that whereas other reviewers have. if i may share a bit of my "testing" with an i3-2120:
Undervolting i3 2120 (the only "fun" there is)

you can see that your claim in that thread of a i3 choking out when more than two cores are being used is not exactly correct; it is dependant on the GPU. an entry or mid range GPU will bottleneck long before any dual core with or without hyperthreading. (considering HT adds ~15% to 30% more performance on a good day)

a load on all 4 "cores" which was surprising with BF2BC:

but no more than 50% usage with an 550ti @100%:



as far as an APU being an excellent bang for your buck lightweight gaming platform, as you stated in your conclusion, thats spot on. but to say that it brutally beats an i3 while consuming less power, because of an underpowered PSU that won't allow you to use turbo, is not correct and you not have any data to back that claim (nor is your power consumption relevant since its an 100 watt A10-5800 being discussed here and not a 60 watt A10-5700) . you do not have any first hand experience with testing an i3/GPU setup.

i do - see how that works.

on a side note, i think you're all in a huff because i made a boo boo and posted, to what i admitted to, a flonky benchmark. ok, my bad - now lets move on.

edited for some obvious typos - tongue.gif
Edited by looniam - 5/16/13 at 5:12am
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post #24 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

but that doesn't come close to back your claim of:
because you didn't test for that whereas other reviewers have. if i may share a bit of my "testing" with an i3-2120:
Undervolting i3 2120 (the only "fun" there is)

I can run my entire system with a 90W PSU and still have room to spare. I'll compute what does that mean for you:

Things I know for sure what do they eat:

-Screen, 10W between the panel and the logic.
-Audio setup, 1W
-HDD, 2W
-Wireless dongles, 1W
-Fans, 3W all together

Totals up to around 17W. Let's be generous, and say that I don't always use the speaker, or the Wi-Fi isn't always on, or the disk is idle a fair amount of time. Make that 15W for accessorial power consumption.

Take that from the worst case power consumption, 90W (any load higher than 90W for more than ~30 seconds will insta-shutdown the computer), and you've got a 75W power budget for the motherboard and the APU.

I know for certain that I have room to spare, as I have hooked additional devices to the internal USB ports (my phone charging up, for example), and I have been able to push the CPU from what I run it to the overclocked speeds (3.6GHz @1.17V).

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2012/11/26/intel-core-i3-3220-review/7

How is my claim off from what I earlier said?

Quote:
you can see that your claim in that thread of a i3 choking out when more than two cores are being used is not exactly correct; it is dependant on the GPU. an entry or mid range GPU will bottleneck long before any dual core with or without hyperthreading. (considering HT adds ~15% to 30% more performance on a good day)

a load on all 4 "cores" which was surprising with BF2BC:

but no more than 50% usage with an 550ti @100%:

I lost you here.
Quote:
as far as an APU being an excellent bang for your buck lightweight gaming platform, as you stated in your conclusion, thats spot on. but to say that it brutally beats an i3 while consuming less power, because of an underpowered PSU that won't allow you to use turbo, is not correct and you not have any data to back that claim (nor is your power consumption relevant since its an 100 watt A10-5800 being discussed here and not a 60 watt A10-5700) . you do not have any first hand experience with testing an i3/GPU setup.

The system could very well run at stock specifications. Why did I disable Turbo and back the voltage down? Because the gains from scaling to a permanent 3.6GHz core speed, and 851MHz GPU speed are far higher than stock speeds with Turbo multiplier - and it also runs much cooler.

The discussion is called 'AMD APUs. Good for gaming?' Not 'AMD A10-5800K. Good for gaming?'. The A10-5800K is a mere suggestion made by the OP based on price alone. I am giving insight on other possibilities. How is that exactly irrelevant?

Quote:
i do - see how that works.

on a side note, i think you're all in a huff because i made a boo boo and posted, to what i admitted to, a flonky benchmark. ok, my bad - now lets move on.

Again, I am not following.
   
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post #25 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

I can run my entire system with a 90W PSU and still have room to spare. I'll compute what does that mean for you:

Things I know for sure what do they eat:

-Screen, 10W between the panel and the logic.
-Audio setup, 1W
-HDD, 2W
-Wireless dongles, 1W
-Fans, 3W all together

Totals up to around 17W. Let's be generous, and say that I don't always use the speaker, or the Wi-Fi isn't always on, or the disk is idle a fair amount of time. Make that 15W for accessorial power consumption.
I know for certain that I have room to spare, as I have hooked additional devices to the internal USB ports (my phone charging up, for example), and I have been able to push the CPU from what I run it to the overclocked speeds (3.6GHz @1.17V).
Take that from the worst case power consumption, 90W (any load higher than 90W for more than ~30 seconds will insta-shutdown the computer), and you've got a 75W power budget for the motherboard and the APU.

those "figures" are way off. but still add 60 watts for your APU, 4 watts for each stick of RAM (x2) and ~15 watts for the chipset . . . there goes all of your 75 watts and 4 more when fully stressed.
ya know lets go to a third party:
http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine
1 A10-5700 APU on an FM2 motherboard with one 5,400 HD and two sticks of DDR3 ram:

looks like you're underpowered man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2012/11/26/intel-core-i3-3220-review/7
How is my claim off from what I earlier said?
ah, that it uses LESS than an i3 without an igpu???? put a load on it while gaming and:

oopsie! it looks like you linked to a page that doesn't agree with you either. or do you think that the system will run idle the whole time its turned on?? well then its 13 watts less or ~72% of an i3 but on load the APU draws ~85% more than an i3. gee, even with a dgpu that doesn't draw more than 60 watts, like a 6670, and it still under. (you may want to look at a previous post here showing the 50 watts that draws.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

to conserve space! (Click to show)
Quote:
you can see that your claim in that thread of a i3 choking out when more than two cores are being used is not exactly correct; it is dependant on the GPU. an entry or mid range GPU will bottleneck long before any dual core with or without hyperthreading. (considering HT adds ~15% to 30% more performance on a good day)

a load on all 4 "cores" which was surprising with BF2BC:

but no more than 50% usage with an 550ti @100%:

I lost you here.

then you might want to look over your thread that you are using as proof; linked directly to the post i was referring to. (pssst its in the above quote) but it doesn't matter i guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

link in HERE! (Click to show)
Quote:
as far as an APU being an excellent bang for your buck lightweight gaming platform, as you stated in your conclusion, thats spot on. but to say that it brutally beats an i3 while consuming less power, because of an underpowered PSU that won't allow you to use turbo, is not correct and you not have any data to back that claim (nor is your power consumption relevant since its an 100 watt A10-5800 being discussed here and not a 60 watt A10-5700) . you do not have any first hand experience with testing an i3/GPU setup.

The system could very well run at stock specifications. Why did I disable Turbo and back the voltage down? Because the gains from scaling to a permanent 3.6GHz core speed, and 851MHz GPU speed are far higher than stock speeds with Turbo multiplier - and it also runs much cooler.

The discussion is called 'AMD APUs. Good for gaming?' Not 'AMD A10-5800K. Good for gaming?'. The A10-5800K is a mere suggestion made by the OP based on price alone. I am giving insight on other possibilities. How is that exactly irrelevant?
ah the linkmy quote has you saying that your PSU wouldn't handle it. i edited the click here to highlight that for you. wink.gif but in case you miss it:
Quote:
I know. But if I leave the Turbo on, my PicoPSU wants to murder me.
you're underpowered man. (deja vu)

well call me a stickler for details. what was specified was an A10-5800K. imagine the surprise a person would have if they get a 100 watt APU and expect it to run under the conditions you specified with a 60 watt APU. the title of the thread is a general one but what is being asked about is rather specific and rather irresponcible that the difference would not be first brought to attention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

Warning: it doesn't matter! (Click to show)
Quote:
i do - see how that works.
on a side note, i think you're all in a huff because i made a boo boo and posted, to what i admitted to, a flonky benchmark. ok, my bad - now lets move on.
Again, I am not following.

i guess that doesn't matter than. just like this whole post. you're claiming that awesome 90 watt PSU is powering a system that will
Quote:
Yes, you heard it right. My A10-5700 nearly matches an i3-3220 without a dedicated GPU in power consumption. And its performance is brutally superior.

and that is not true. but hey! if you really want to believe that, go for it. but don't be surprise when someone shouts, "the emperor has no clothes!"
(if you don't understand that- google is your friend smile.gif )


cheers.
Edited by looniam - 5/16/13 at 1:32pm
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post #26 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

those "figures" are way off. but still add 60 watts for your APU, 4 watts for each stick of RAM (x2) and ~15 watts for the chipset . . . there goes all of your 75 watts and 4 more when fully stressed.
ya know lets go to a third party:
http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine
1 A10-5700 APU on an FM2 motherboard with one 5,400 HD and two sticks of DDR3 ram:

looks like you're underpowered man.
ah, that it uses LESS than an i3 without an igpu???? put a load on it while gaming and:

oopsie! it looks like you linked to a page that doesn't agree with you either. or do you think that the system will run idle the whole time its turned on?? well then its 13 watts less or ~72% of an i3 but on load the APU draws ~85% more than an i3. gee, even with a dgpu that doesn't draw more than 60 watts, like a 6670, and it still under. (you may want to look at a previous post here showing the 50 watts that draws.)
then you might want to look over your thread that you are using as proof; linked directly to the post i was referring to. (pssst its in the above quote) but it doesn't matter i guess.
ah the linkmy quote has you saying that your PSU wouldn't handle it. i edited the click here to highlight that for you. wink.gif but in case you miss it:
you're underpowered man. (deja vu)

well call me a stickler for details. what was specified was an A10-5800K. imagine the surprise a person would have if they get a 100 watt APU and expect it to run under the conditions you specified with a 60 watt APU. the title of the thread is a general one but what is being asked about is rather specific and rather irresponcible that the difference would not be first brought to attention.
i guess that doesn't matter than. just like this whole post. you're claiming that awesome 90 watt PSU is powering a system that will
and that is not true. but hey! if you really want to believe that, go for it. but don't be surprise when someone shouts, "the emperor has no clothes!"
(if you don't understand that- google is your friend smile.gif )


cheers.
All this arguing over power when someone is just asking for help on a APU system? Wow,only in the AMD forum. Gaming on an i3 without a dedicated GPU? LOL! Are you serious?
The 90w Pico PSU runs hits system just fine,I don't get why you're trying to say the i3 is somehow better just because it uses a few less watts,which would be pennies a year on the power bill.
Just because the chip is rated for 60W,doesn't mean it;s always using the full wattage,especially in his case,my 5800K used about 70-75W stock. There was also a whole thread about actual TDP vs. rated TDP for the APU's,which I'll have to find.
Also,not to mention,those PSU calculators just give an approximate value,and of course more than is needed.

Try running a i3 overclocked to turbo frequency with a HD6670 OC'd and all accessories on a 90W PSU he was discussing,i'll bet you can't run it on 100% full load all day either.
Edited by Heavy MG - 5/16/13 at 5:49pm
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post #27 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy MG View Post

All this arguing over power when someone is just asking for help on a APU system? Wow,only in the AMD forum. Gaming on an i3 without a dedicated GPU? LOL! Are you serious?
The 90w Pico PSU runs hits system just fine,I don't get why you're trying to say the i3 is somehow better just because it uses a few less watts,which would be pennies a year on the power bill.
Just because the chip is rated for 60W,doesn't mean it;s always using the full wattage,especially in his case,my 5800K used about 70-75W stock. There was also a whole thread about actual TDP vs. rated TDP for the APU's,which I'll have to find.
Also,not to mention,those PSU calculators just give an approximate value,and of course more than is needed.

Try running a i3 overclocked to turbo frequency with a HD6670 OC'd and all accessories on a 90W PSU he was discussing,i'll bet you can't run it on 100% full load all day either.

is there anything i said about gaming with just the igpu of the i3 only?
NO.
and every bit of verifiable data points that an APU will need much more than a "claimed" 90 watt PSU.

i didn't say anything about an i3 being better because it uses less watts. BUT throw in a discrete (that would put the power draw equal) and like it or not the intel/dgpu would perform better in most instances while gaming.

what the A10-5800K does have is it is a much better in cost/performance. esp. when you overclock the A10. oh, btw, there is no such "overclocking an i3 to turbo frequency" since its a locked cpu. (maybe you need to know what you're talking about, eh?) though add the cost of getting faster RAM, 1600 vs 1866 or better, and a better than stock cpu cooler - its not exactly an overwhelming win BUT enough.

thanks for the peanut gallery comment. thumb.gif
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post #28 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

is there anything i said about gaming with just the igpu of the i3 only?
NO.
and every bit of verifiable data points that an APU will need much more than a "claimed" 90 watt PSU.

i didn't say anything about an i3 being better because it uses less watts. BUT throw in a discrete (that would put the power draw equal) and like it or not the intel/dgpu would perform better in most instances while gaming.

what the A10-5800K does have is it is a much better in cost/performance. esp. when you overclock the A10. oh, btw, there is no such "overclocking an i3 to turbo frequency" since its a locked cpu. (maybe you need to know what you're talking about, eh?) though add the cost of getting faster RAM, 1600 vs 1866 or better, and a better than stock cpu cooler - its not exactly an overwhelming win BUT enough.

thanks for the peanut gallery comment. thumb.gif
Well there is,or at least the graphs don't state what GPU is being used if at all.
Throwing in a discreet card would end up costing more than the 5800K,and at the end of the day you're still on a dual core,which Intel seems to think is worth charging well over $100 for.
I'm sure you get what I meant by OC'ing to turbo frequency seeing as you have an i5-2400,even with locked Intel chips you can run them on their fastest Turbo multiplier.
With ram how cheap it is anymore,you may as well opt for 1866mhz ram,buying the faster ram is still cheaper than having to buy a dedicated GPU. I dunno what you mean by the stock cooler,because it isn't that bad even with an OC. Of course I upgraded to 212 Evo for a serious overclock,though the stock cooler is just fine if you don't plan on running at 4.5Ghz with a 900-1000Mhz GPU.
Edited by Heavy MG - 5/16/13 at 7:21pm
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post #29 of 49
not bashing, just pointing out some facts.

His APU is under-volted with turbo turned off(last I recall).

Uses the less leaky a10-5700(as I recall, they're binned for this).

That power draw is from the wall, on a 80+ PSU.

I could see that irking around 90 watts pretty easily.

Directly from guru3d.com

Power Consumption

TDP wise AMD tried to lowered power usage for the A10 5700. In IDLE (no dedicated graphics card installed) you'd sit at roughly 35~40 Watts, however when we start to stress the CPU cores then power consumption boosts upwards to roughly 100~110 Watt (for the entire PC). That's quite a bit considering the performance level of the APU.

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_a10_5700k_review_apu,21.html

*edit* doesn't mini-itx consume less power then micro-atx/atx motherboards aswell?
Edited by Alanim - 5/16/13 at 7:30pm
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post #30 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alanim View Post

not bashing, just pointing out some facts.

His APU is under-volted with turbo turned off(last I recall).

Uses the less leaky a10-5700(as I recall, they're binned for this).

That power draw is from the wall, on a 80+ PSU.

I could see that irking around 90 watts pretty easily.

Directly from guru3d.com

Power Consumption

TDP wise AMD tried to lowered power usage for the A10 5700. In IDLE (no dedicated graphics card installed) you'd sit at roughly 35~40 Watts, however when we start to stress the CPU cores then power consumption boosts upwards to roughly 100~110 Watt (for the entire PC). That's quite a bit considering the performance level of the APU.

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_a10_5700k_review_apu,21.html

*edit* doesn't mini-itx consume less power then micro-atx/atx motherboards aswell?
Most APU's can benefit from undervolting as their factory V core is a bit high,I wouldn't know how much less power it would use after an undervolt but would assume 10-15 watts at least,and perhaps another 10 watts less with a mITX board.
Just IMO,but 100 watts isn't bad at all for a quad core with a decent iGPU ,as already stated above,there is extra benefit from 2 more cores in games that can use them.
Edited by Heavy MG - 5/16/13 at 8:20pm
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