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[Ars] Google: “Take down your ad-free YouTube app” Microsoft: “Let us add ads” - Page 3

post #21 of 51
Google is a business, and businesses need to make money. Nothing wrong with that.
post #22 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3930K View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3930K View Post

That's been your argument for quite a while now. Any other argument, except choice? As this app came out one week ago. I'm pretty damn sure that Adblock came out way before that.

^Doesn't work on the mobile website anyways, so right now you're not gonna get any money from WP. :/

Is there anything I can say to point out that you are completely one sided on this?
Yes, PROOF.

What proof would you like, that will allow you to agree Google can provide its service how it would like and to whomever it wants?
No, proof that I'm biased.

And yes, I know they can. Not a particularly strong argument, but it's a valid argument. Never said it wasn't, just was saying it's not very good.

^ Giving them the ad APIs would give them more money.
post #23 of 51
I look back, before anyone claims I am favoring Google on this, I just want to state I an indie developer myself and have used the YouTube API in the past.

I would like to direct everyone's attention to YouTube API Terms - https://developers.google.com/youtube/terms
Quote:
II. Prohibitions

Your API Client will not, and You will not encourage or create functionality for Your users or other third parties to:
  • collect or modify any YouTube user account information;
  • interfere or attempt to interfere in any manner with the proper workings of the YouTube API, or create or distribute any API Client that adversely affects the functionality or performance of YouTube or services provided by YouTube;
  • circumvent or render ineffective any geographical restrictions, including IP address-based restrictions;
  • sell, lease, lend, convey, redistribute, or sublicense to any third party all or any portion of the YouTube API or API Data (except that You may distribute and display the YouTube audiovisual content and accompanying metadata to Your users through Your API Client in a manner that complies with this Agreement);
  • modify or replace the text, images, or other content of the YouTube search results, including (i) changing the order in which search results are presented as YouTube search results, or (ii) intermixing sources other than YouTube when search results are presented as YouTube search results;
  • modify, replace or otherwise disable the functioning of links to YouTube or third-party websites provided in the YouTube search results or otherwise provided through the YouTube API or YouTube player;
  • modify, replace, interfere with or block advertisements placed by YouTube in the YouTube Data, YouTube audiovisual content, or the YouTube player;
  • separate, isolate, or modify the audio or video components of any YouTube audiovisual content made available through the YouTube API;
  • promote separately the audio or video components of any YouTube audiovisual content made available through the YouTube API;
  • access any portion of any YouTube audiovisual content by any means other than use of a YouTube player or other video player expressly authorized by YouTube;
  • store copies of YouTube audiovisual content;
  • use the YouTube API intentionally to encourage or promote copyright infringement or the exploitation of copyright-infringing materials;
  • misrepresent your identity when registering for use of the YouTube API, use the developer credentials licensed to a different individual or entity, or mask Your usage of the YouTube API; or
  • use a video player smaller than the minimum video player size set forth in the YouTube API documentation and specifications

Edited by RagingCain - 5/16/13 at 9:27am
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post #24 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3930K View Post

That's been your argument for quite a while now. Any other argument, except choice? As this app came out one week ago. I'm pretty damn sure that Adblock came out way before that.

^Doesn't work on the mobile website anyways, so right now you're not gonna get any money from WP. :/

Is there anything I can say to point out that you are completely one sided on this?

Anyone that takes either side is, but the overall case in point is: Google has every right to say "You're evading ad streams and therefore violating Youtube terms, please remove your Youtube app until you correct this." It doesn't matter who is morally right or wrong. Google owns Youtube, Microsoft is using it. If they use it in other ways to how Google wants them to, Google reserves the right to restrict them from doing so. That's simply how life and business work. Your ISP will terminate your service if they find that you have been using it against their rules. Your landlord has the right to evict you/penalize you if you violate rules such as having pets, smoking, having loud parties, etc. Before anyone nitpicks that to hell, it's just a generic example. They may not have the right in every state etc. etc.
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post #25 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHunt View Post

Since when was the 360 an ARM device running a WP OS? Do you claim to know so much about the WP8 source code and the 360 OS source code/YT app to say that Google definitely game MS the POSIX-compliant API for them to adapt ans recompile to other platforms? I think it's most likely that Google gave MS a compatible API specifically for the 360. Google's interactions with MS regarding any MS mobile platform has been so childish it's not even defensible. Honestly just look at gmail and gtalk. If Google were the victim, they would have the docs to call MS on not having the API. Have they done so? Nope.

I'm not saying MS is blameless, but as a WP8 user who initially had access to all his google features at launch just to see them stripped away for no coherent reason, google's stances need some explaining.

And google complaining that WP is leeching revenue is a complete joke. Look at the WP marketshare. Now look at the amount of people running firefox/chrome with Adblock Plus installed. Many streaming sites can detect ABP and play extra long blank screens instead of 30 second ads unless it is disabled. This is well within google's capability but instead they focus PR resources on attacking one of the smallest smartphone user bases and complain about YT ads? Come on.

ETA: On the YT mobile site, I have NEVER seen an ad when accessed from my Lumia 920. Never, ever ever.

Complied with the fact that you can go to Google's very own app store and type in "youtube downloader" or "ad blocker" etc, its a bit funny for them to make noise about Windows Phone apps that allow downloading YT vids and due to their own choices, have never even allowed youtube vids on Windows Phone to have ads on them in the first place, and then moan about ad-revenue from Windows Phone youtube apps.
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post #26 of 51
Thread Starter 
I see the "store copies" part and the "disable of functioning of ads" (which I, to be honest, do not know if was done or not). But any other parts you'd like to point out?
And yes, at least I did know that it was violating the YT API terms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3930K View Post

That's been your argument for quite a while now. Any other argument, except choice? As this app came out one week ago. I'm pretty damn sure that Adblock came out way before that.

^Doesn't work on the mobile website anyways, so right now you're not gonna get any money from WP. :/

Is there anything I can say to point out that you are completely one sided on this?

Anyone that takes either side is, but the overall case in point is: Google has every right to say "You're evading ad streams and therefore violating Youtube terms, please remove your Youtube app until you correct this." It doesn't matter who is morally right or wrong. Google owns Youtube, Microsoft is using it. If they use it in other ways to how Google wants them to, Google reserves the right to restrict them from doing so. That's simply how life and business work. Your ISP will terminate your service if they find that you have been using it against their rules. Your landlord has the right to evict you/penalize you if you violate rules such as having pets, smoking, having loud parties, etc. Before anyone nitpicks that to hell, it's just a generic example. They may not have the right in every state etc. etc.
Any PROOF that they're removing the ads, or are you not sure of they're not even being served in the first place?
post #27 of 51
/rant started

As a Windows Phone user since three years, I'm not with Google on this one. They always tried to block the OS to access to YouTube in any way. It took 3 years before we have finally an OFFICIAL app that's great (Microsoft have done a terrific job with this app, it's awesome).

I remember Google saying something like "there's not enough users to justify an app, so there's not money to make". Well, why complain then? You have always refused to give APIs to Windows Phone or making an app yourself saying that there weren't enough user; you shouldn't complain about the loss of few publicity. Strange that yesterday they asked more "openness" from Microsoft at Google I/O rolleyes.gif

My opinion: make the app yourself or give MS permission to use your APIs.

/rant finished

Google and Microsoft are so childish when they deal with each other; it's not even funny anymore.
That being said, using free app in the WP Marketplace / YouTube mobile site, I never got any adds thinking.gif
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post #28 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHunt View Post

Since when was the 360 an ARM device running a WP OS? Do you claim to know so much about the WP8 source code and the 360 OS source code/YT app to say that Google definitely game MS the POSIX-compliant API for them to adapt ans recompile to other platforms? I think it's most likely that Google gave MS a compatible API specifically for the 360. Google's interactions with MS regarding any MS mobile platform has been so childish it's not even defensible. Honestly just look at gmail and gtalk. If Google were the victim, they would have the docs to call MS on not having the API. Have they done so? Nope.

I'm not saying MS is blameless, but as a WP8 user who initially had access to all his google features at launch just to see them stripped away for no coherent reason, google's stances need some explaining.

And google complaining that WP is leeching revenue is a complete joke. Look at the WP marketshare. Now look at the amount of people running firefox/chrome with Adblock Plus installed. Many streaming sites can detect ABP and play extra long blank screens instead of 30 second ads unless it is disabled. This is well within google's capability but instead they focus PR resources on attacking one of the smallest smartphone user bases and complain about YT ads? Come on.

ETA: On the YT mobile site, I have NEVER seen an ad when accessed from my Lumia 920. Never, ever ever.

Complied with the fact that you can go to Google's very own app store and type in "youtube downloader" or "ad blocker" etc, its a bit funny for them to make noise about Windows Phone apps that allow downloading YT vids and due to their own choices, have never even allowed youtube vids on Windows Phone to have ads on them in the first place, and then moan about ad-revenue from Windows Phone youtube apps.

It's probably a very small number of people using such apps though in comparison to the number of people that are using Youtube from a Windows phone. We're talking 100% of WP users aren't seeing those ads, versus probably 5% of Chrome/etc. users skipping on them with such extensions. Probably why they haven't really bothered to kill off those apps (though they were recently removing some weren't they?) We're also talking about ONE entity (Microsoft) violating terms and distributing an app that skips ads, versus dozens of community developers (good luck reaching one!) that have extensions for Chrome. Google are probably happy to even have them supporting the Chrome browser with such development.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 5/16/13 at 9:34am
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post #29 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaub View Post

/rant started

As a Windows Phone user since three years, I'm not with Google on this one. They always tried to block the OS to access to YouTube in any way. It took 3 years before we have finally an OFFICIAL app that's great (Microsoft have done a terrific job with this app, it's awesome).

I remember Google saying something like "there's not enough users to justify an app, so there's not money to make". Well, why complain then? You have always refused to give APIs to Windows Phone or making an app yourself saying that there weren't enough user; you shouldn't complain about the loss of few publicity. Strange that yesterday they asked more "openness" from Microsoft at Google I/O rolleyes.gif

My opinion: make the app yourself or give MS permission to use your APIs.

/rant finished

Google and Microsoft are so childish when they deal with each other; it's not even funny anymore.
That being said, using free app in the WP Marketplace / YouTube mobile site, I never got any adds thinking.gif
Someone else that agrees with me!

^Right, of course.
Chrome AdBlock users: 10M.
WP users: around 20M (with some very rough calcs)

I think that there is actually quite a large number of people that use Ad blockers.
Edited by 3930K - 5/16/13 at 9:34am
post #30 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHunt View Post

Since when was the 360 an ARM device running a WP OS? Do you claim to know so much about the WP8 source code and the 360 OS source code/YT app to say that Google definitely game MS the POSIX-compliant API for them to adapt ans recompile to other platforms? I think it's most likely that Google gave MS a compatible API specifically for the 360. Google's interactions with MS regarding any MS mobile platform has been so childish it's not even defensible. Honestly just look at gmail and gtalk. If Google were the victim, they would have the docs to call MS on not having the API. Have they done so? Nope.

I'm not saying MS is blameless, but as a WP8 user who initially had access to all his google features at launch just to see them stripped away for no coherent reason, google's stances need some explaining.

And google complaining that WP is leeching revenue is a complete joke. Look at the WP marketshare. Now look at the amount of people running firefox/chrome with Adblock Plus installed. Many streaming sites can detect ABP and play extra long blank screens instead of 30 second ads unless it is disabled. This is well within google's capability but instead they focus PR resources on attacking one of the smallest smartphone user bases and complain about YT ads? Come on.

ETA: On the YT mobile site, I have NEVER seen an ad when accessed from my Lumia 920. Never, ever ever.

Complied with the fact that you can go to Google's very own app store and type in "youtube downloader" or "ad blocker" etc, its a bit funny for them to make noise about Windows Phone apps that allow downloading YT vids and due to their own choices, have never even allowed youtube vids on Windows Phone to have ads on them in the first place, and then moan about ad-revenue from Windows Phone youtube apps.

I think there is some confusion here. Google can't prevent you from installing some 3rd party program you want to block ads. But is still a violation of the users Terms of Service.

Google can prevent Microsoft from using Google's APIs to do something that is not allowed ToS. It can also request the above applications be taken down or litigate, for violating its own terms of service.
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