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[PCG] Nvidia surprised the Titan outsold the year-old GTX 690 in just 3 months. - Page 22  

post #211 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
You obviously don't know anything about frame rating if this is actually your honest opinion.
two months and 10 days before the 680 launched after which it took the 12.11s and the ghz to take the crown back again. The reason you didn't see it at a high price is that it didn't have a big enough difference compare to the other GPUs. And when it launched at $550 AM knew NV was bringing out GPUs soon as well. And even then at launch it wasn't even 20% faster than a 580.

Titan is ~32% faster than a GHz and ~42% faster than a 680/7970
The difference is that Titan is 32-35% (depending on the review site) faster than the next best GPU and also OCs just as well. We don't buy 3960Xs most of the time because they perform identically compared to 3930Ks. I have a 3930K that does 5GHz prime stable at 1.35v and benches 5.3GHz at 1.49v. I've also spent 1100€ on 3930Ks. They're more disposable than 3960Xs due to the price. Only practical difference is the letter X and a black sticker. That isn't worth 1000€ for me, but 32% better perf than a 7970GHz is. World of difference.
There are different sort of people in every hobby.... don't see why everyone should go for best price/perf.
680s and all kepler based cards have hardware frame metering which very effectively kills the frame time variances. Yes there are problems but not enough to make people not buy them.
A thread about Titan vs. 690 sales and most comments are about the benefits of multi GPU setups or the Titan. Seems very much on topic to me.
First proper frame rating articles started coming out in September of 2011. It's an old thing and it's not some snake oil. Otherwise tom's blind test of the 7990 an the 690 wouldn't have had all participants choosing the 690 as the superior gameplay experience due to smoothness.
No you don't need special cameras. This just further proves that you are not informed on the issue so I would ask that you not call the users who talk about it victims of some marketing ploy.

The reason it's being talked about now is that we now have the tools to objectively measure it. I had two 5870s back when they launched. I was also playing BC2 without vsync (don't like input lag that much) and wondering why playing with two cards looked worse than with a single card. Back then I couldn't explain why, now I can.

And in case you don't know what big frame time variances (no, not this 5ms stuff you're talking about) means and looks like, just watch this:



Don't mind the thumbnail that says 20% speed, it's recorded at full speed for the beginning half of the video. The stuttering is extremely noticeable and real. Anyone who claims otherwise just refuses to watch any of these videos or the proof
.


How much time did you spend to write an off topic post??? You are a mod Alatar, remember?
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post #212 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by m3t4lh34d View Post

As someone who purchased 5 Titans total, and has run 4 of them in Quad SLI for a while, if the 780 is released at $500-600 like many of the rumors suggest, I will be extremely disappointed in my purchase. I will admit, I enjoy the Titan, and actually spent more time binning each of my GPUs to see which OC'd the best and how 1 of them would perform at 1440p, so there is no bias there. However, there is no denying that if Nvidia was capable of releasing a GK110 part for nearly half the price of Titan a few months after its release, they could have EASILY cut the price of the Titan at launch by at least 25%. It was a question of "how bad do the customers want it", and had it not sold well at $1k, they would've lowered the price just like AMD did with the 7970 with its preposterous launch prices, which even though they were extreme, were child's play in comparison to Titan.


My main argument, and main issue is, after satisfying my urge to own Quad Titans and OC them, benchmark, and so on, and the fact that I've played all of the latest demanding single player shooters and beaten them, there really is NOTHING on the horizon to push such a setup, whatsoever. The ONLY thing I can think of is Battlefield 4 in conjunction with 4K, but other than that there aren't really ANY other titles being released in the near future with REPLAYABILITY, that justifies owning $4000 worth of GPUs.

I'm just glad that I'll be getting close to all of my $$ back for my cards before the release of the 780. After the 780 is out, good luck trying to sell your Titans for any more than 80% of what you paid.

Perhaps this comes down to the fact that PC gaming as a whole isn't as alive and well as I'd like it to be, and it doesn't warrant such an investment to enjoy anymore. I can play BF3 and Starcraft II (my favorite games that I replay alot) on my HD5870 at 1440p with high settings at the cost of AA, and it's almost laughable how old that card is and its value compared to all of the Titans that I own.


What I will say is that it was fun playing through Metro Last Light with the Titans, and I even used 1 Titan with a 680 for Physx and it performed really well. I do admit, I slapped my 2GB 680s back in today just to compare, and I did notice it was SLIGHTLY less smooth than the Titan, but the overall twitchy average framerate was higher which is good for a shooter. In single player titles where you spend time looking at the environment and looking for pickups and interacting with NPCs, a smoother experience with less fps can beneficial, but the games that I replay the most such as the multiplayer shooters and RTS titles, benefit more from the higher fps numbers (in reference to 1 Titan vs 2 680s for example)

Basically my plan is already set in motion, and that is to get rid of all of my Titans and watch the landscape whilst gaming on a 5870 until there is a game released that I feel I'm unable to play satisfactorily with that card.

Perhaps these are the words of someone who has had a revelation as to the blatant waste of resources for frames in games that I'll play through once and that's it.

I'm sure I'll end up changing my mind and buying 4 780s (IF they are a decent price) after launch. At least then I'd feel alot better saving a minimum of $1000 and losing barely any frames in doing so. thumb.gif

Nice post. If there is one guy on here who has tried every possible setup and judged it unbiased, with a fine toothed comb, it is this guy right here.
     
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post #213 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by djriful View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

I'm not actually surprised that the Titan outsold the GTX 690. It's a single GPU card, so stability on its performance is going to be better, so to a lot of people, the Titan is a safer buy.

What is surprising is that it outsold the GTX 690 even though the GTX 690 and Titan are both the same price. That's a little bit of a shocker.

Everyone knows multi-GPU is problematic for some users.

1. Noises
2. Higher Wattage
3. Heats
4. Game profiles...

1, 2 and 3 is irrelevant for watercool users. But you cannot escape #4.

Single GPU...
1. Not enough performance to get the job done.
2. Looks like crap in any good-size case.

Answered your implied question.

Maybe for people who only play 1080p it's good enough I guess... And yes I'm aware that second bit is preference, but what's the point in buying a tower case if you aren't going to fill it.
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post #214 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomama22 View Post

Nice post. If there is one guy on here who has tried every possible setup and judged it unbiased, with a fine toothed comb, it is this guy right here.

This is what I call an unbias user. thumb.gif
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post #215 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaRLiToS View Post

How much time did you spend to write an off topic post??? You are a mod Alatar, remember?

Titan price discussions, multi GPU vs. single GPU, etc. is very much on topic where people discuss the reasons why Titan outsold the 690.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Answered your implied question.

Maybe for people who only play 1080p it's good enough I guess... And yes I'm aware that second bit is preference, but what's the point in buying a tower case if you aren't going to fill it.

That's usually the case though (referring to #1). The difference here is that Titan pretty much solves that problem. It offers performance that's very close to dual GPU solutions while getting rid of the problems they have. A single GPU doesn't need as much fps to feel smooth either due to the bigger frame time variances on dual GPU setups.

I would much rather have a single Titan at 1440p than any dual GPU setup outside of two Titans. And that's why I bought a Titan. It fit my purposes, as good perf as possible on a single GPU which is what I want for my 24/7 experience that I prefer with as little issues as possible. Benching I don't care, bring on all the GPUs.

As for #2; normal cases are overrated? tongue.gif
Edited by Alatar - 5/18/13 at 11:47pm
 
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post #216 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

You obviously don't know anything about frame rating if this is actually your honest opinion.


Don't mind the thumbnail that says 20% speed, it's recorded at full speed for the beginning half of the video. The stuttering is extremely noticeable and real. Anyone who claims otherwise just refuses to watch any of these videos or the proof.
And honestly, this video is almost spot on what I experienced comparing the two. It was not as bad, but the left is a pretty decent, though exaggerated, representation of my experience on the 690 rig I used (which by the way, was a guy's personal setup at a local hardware resale shop).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

You obviously don't know anything about frame rating if this is actually your honest opinion.
Especially considering I am the one that brought it up, and I never once said anything about AMD vs Nvidia, I was comparing my experience with the 690 to MY Titan. All the other trollish comments in here took it to the AMD argument, because people are too dense to understand context on the internet.

Simple fact is, in my experience, the 690 appeared to have much lower framerates, even though it was technically running faster. It was a crap experience for me.
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post #217 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by m3t4lh34d View Post

As someone who purchased 5 Titans total, and has run 4 of them in Quad SLI for a while, if the 780 is released at $500-600 like many of the rumors suggest, I will be extremely disappointed in my purchase. I will admit, I enjoy the Titan, and actually spent more time binning each of my GPUs to see which OC'd the best and how 1 of them would perform at 1440p, so there is no bias there. However, there is no denying that if Nvidia was capable of releasing a GK110 part for nearly half the price of Titan a few months after its release, they could have EASILY cut the price of the Titan at launch by at least 25%. It was a question of "how bad do the customers want it", and had it not sold well at $1k, they would've lowered the price just like AMD did with the 7970 with its preposterous launch prices, which even though they were extreme, were child's play in comparison to Titan.


My main argument, and main issue is, after satisfying my urge to own Quad Titans and OC them, benchmark, and so on, and the fact that I've played all of the latest demanding single player shooters and beaten them, there really is NOTHING on the horizon to push such a setup, whatsoever. The ONLY thing I can think of is Battlefield 4 in conjunction with 4K, but other than that there aren't really ANY other titles being released in the near future with REPLAYABILITY, that justifies owning $4000 worth of GPUs.

I'm just glad that I'll be getting close to all of my $$ back for my cards before the release of the 780. After the 780 is out, good luck trying to sell your Titans for any more than 80% of what you paid.

Perhaps this comes down to the fact that PC gaming as a whole isn't as alive and well as I'd like it to be, and it doesn't warrant such an investment to enjoy anymore. I can play BF3 and Starcraft II (my favorite games that I replay alot) on my HD5870 at 1440p with high settings at the cost of AA, and it's almost laughable how old that card is and its value compared to all of the Titans that I own.


What I will say is that it was fun playing through Metro Last Light with the Titans, and I even used 1 Titan with a 680 for Physx and it performed really well. I do admit, I slapped my 2GB 680s back in today just to compare, and I did notice it was SLIGHTLY less smooth than the Titan, but the overall twitchy average framerate was higher which is good for a shooter. In single player titles where you spend time looking at the environment and looking for pickups and interacting with NPCs, a smoother experience with less fps can beneficial, but the games that I replay the most such as the multiplayer shooters and RTS titles, benefit more from the higher fps numbers (in reference to 1 Titan vs 2 680s for example)

Basically my plan is already set in motion, and that is to get rid of all of my Titans and watch the landscape whilst gaming on a 5870 until there is a game released that I feel I'm unable to play satisfactorily with that card.

Perhaps these are the words of someone who has had a revelation as to the blatant waste of resources for frames in games that I'll play through once and that's it.

I'm sure I'll end up changing my mind and buying 4 780s (IF they are a decent price) after launch. At least then I'd feel alot better saving a minimum of $1000 and losing barely any frames in doing so. thumb.gif

I generally concur with Metalhead as a quad Titan owner.
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post #218 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

I'm not actually surprised that the Titan outsold the GTX 690. It's a single GPU card, so stability on its performance is going to be better, so to a lot of people, the Titan is a safer buy.

What is surprising is that it outsold the GTX 690 even though the GTX 690 and Titan are both the same price. That's a little bit of a shocker.

See that's the thing I really don't think I get about multi GPUs, the only platform they make sense to me in is SSF builds where the power is needed in as few slots as possible. They're more expensive than multiple cards usually, and especially in this instance where there's a single gpu that comes close to its performance levels on the same price point. Sure the 690/7990 is around 30% faster (IIRC) but you get a lot more reliability without sli/cfx in the mix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

You obviously don't know anything about frame rating if this is actually your honest opinion.

And you know nothing about marketing if you truly don't believe the answer doesn't lie somewhere in the middle.
Quote:
two months and 10 days before the 680 launched after which it took the 12.11s and the ghz to take the crown back again. The reason you didn't see it at a high price is that it didn't have a big enough difference compare to the other GPUs. And when it launched at $550 AM knew NV was bringing out GPUs soon as well. And even then at launch it wasn't even 20% faster than a 580.

But your entire argument in every thread is based on that people will pay a premium for even the smallest of gaps in gains, so why didn't AMD charge more for the 7970s? Oh right. market stabilization. Remember building PCs has to be a better alternative than buying a console, loosing both companies customers doesn't benefit anyone. (Aka killing a market with inflation)
Quote:

Titan is ~32% faster than a GHz and ~42% faster than a 680/7970
The difference is that Titan is 32-35% (depending on the review site) faster than the next best GPU and also OCs just as well. We don't buy 3960Xs most of the time because they perform identically compared to 3930Ks. I have a 3930K that does 5GHz prime stable at 1.35v and benches 5.3GHz at 1.49v. I've also spent 1100€ on 3930Ks. They're more disposable than 3960Xs due to the price. Only practical difference is the letter X and a black sticker. That isn't worth 1000€ for me, but 32% better perf than a 7970GHz is. World of difference.

Entirely your opinion but again you're welcome to it. Something completely impercieveable to me isn't worth an extra $700 (larger than the $600 gap between a 30k and 60x here btw, which I find interesting, finland, right?)
Quote:

There are different sort of people in every hobby.... don't see why everyone should go for best price/perf.

Nothing wrong with doing it, alot wrong with condemning others for not doing it.
Quote:

680s and all kepler based cards have hardware frame metering which very effectively kills the frame time variances. Yes there are problems but not enough to make people not buy them.
A thread about Titan vs. 690 sales and most comments are about the benefits of multi GPU setups or the Titan. Seems very much on topic to me.
What percentage of this thread has been about frametime issues, price performance, etc, etc.
Quote:

First proper frame rating articles started coming out in September of 2011. It's an old thing and it's not some snake oil. Otherwise tom's blind test of the 7990 an the 690 wouldn't have had all participants choosing the 690 as the superior gameplay experience due to smoothness.

Forgive me for not taking a test entirely seriously when I do not personally get to see numeric results. Not to mention, there's 0 qualitative statement there. Its just a number of people.
Quote:

No you don't need special cameras. This just further proves that you are not informed on the issue so I would ask that you not call the users who talk about it victims of some marketing ploy.

Really so you're telling me your eye can track the path of a speeding bullet? Iiiiiinteresting. Let me guess you can also tell when a lightbulb turns on in the distance? And how long it takes the light to reach your eye too? We are talking about occasional issues, with milliseconds of issues. As I said a quote that you interestingly decided not to take, was that if we want PERFECT cards, get ready to pay more for them than you paid for that titan you're so proud of.
Quote:

The reason it's being talked about now is that we now have the tools to objectively measure it. I had two 5870s back when they launched. I was also playing BC2 without vsync (don't like input lag that much) and wondering why playing with two cards looked worse than with a single card. Back then I couldn't explain why, now I can.

And I can explain why that pill made entirely of sugar cured your headache too. Come on. You really mean to tell me occasional things like that are really, really, ruining your gaming experience? Something you definitely wouldn't get in benchmarking AFAIK, and honestly, you're playing the wrong games if that is where your focus is.
Quote:

And in case you don't know what big frame time variances (no, not this 5ms stuff you're talking about) means and looks like, just watch this:



Don't mind the thumbnail that says 20% speed, it's recorded at full speed for the beginning half of the video. The stuttering is extremely noticeable and real. Anyone who claims otherwise just refuses to watch any of these videos or the proof.

And I can show you pictures of crops with interesting patters in them showing how they might be aliens trying to communicate with us all day long too, but would you take me seriously?

Lab tests and actual perception are 2 completely different animals.

Oh, and just a reminder, seeing as titan owners were screaming this across the boards when it came out, 7990 is not even in public hands yet (at least not in my country's) so let the drivers mature more. The arguments work both ways guys.

EDIT FOR FAIR ARGUMENT SAKE: I did watch the video until the slowmos just now.

Know what I think it is, I don't play games at these retardedly demanding settings and look for these things, I did see a couple (1-2) frames out of sync, and yes, online that would bother me. I do however refer to my driver maturity argument.

Also, side note as I would like to learn, howcome these measuring tools are just hitting the floors now if this has been known about for a couple years?
Edited by SniperTeamTango - 5/18/13 at 11:57pm
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post #219 of 338
Considering that video is an exaggerated representation of my 690 experience as compared to my Titan, I think your crop circle remark is a little absurd. Hey, lets just take a very clear example, and then write it off because we don't agree with it!
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post #220 of 338
I have just watched that vid Alatar posted about 10 times back to back and still do not see anything remotely bad or unplayable about the supposedly stuttery left side? Sure when directly comparing to the one on the right its a bit choppier but honestly it doesn't seem like that big a deal AT ALL. I dunno, I certainly wouldn't have any issues playing with the one on the left especially if I didn't have the other one to compare to....
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [PCG] Nvidia surprised the Titan outsold the year-old GTX 690 in just 3 months.