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post #901 of 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by NABBO View Post

lowered the price of the GTX 260 and GTX 280 because the competition has launched the 4800 that were a little 'less performance and with much lower prices.
This time the competition is lacking, missing 8970 and 8950

Yep, I'm okay with a $599 price too.
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post #902 of 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlhil2 View Post

STOP, just STOP, how dare you, bringing common sense into this price discussion, just STOP!!!mad.gif

Doesn't sound like common sense to me wink.gif. We'll see soon enough though what happens... no need to devolve into personal silliness like "you're smoking crack if you think X" people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post


Nobody cares about your opinion so why even post that comment? See what I did there? Try to be a bit more respectful.

---

Besides, $500 for a GTX780? Quit smoking. GTX680 is, at the moment, above $450, and if they sell the GTX780 at $500, they will make less money off of it, as well as insulting everybody that bought their Titan's.

Hypocrisy to the max... "Be respectful guys... oh wait, you don't agree with me, you must be nuts." Your scenarios don't make much sense with the GTX 680 now going for 400-450 in the USA for many models. I'd say $599 at worst for the 780 is my guess, and maybe $449 for the 770, but I don't know and neither do you, so it's silly to talk in absolutes here.
Edited by GoldenTiger - 5/21/13 at 8:51pm
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post #903 of 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by gl0ry View Post

Titan isn't just a gaming card though, it's a business/compute solution. I don't know if it's valid to really use it as a price reference for the 780 based on gaming performance. I felt the same way you do, but after discussing about it in this thread, there hasn't been a GTX #80 launch that has been over $499 since the GTX 280 and that was quickly knocked down to $499 after the first week.

If the 780 retails at $700 it's going to be a real trend changer and not for the good. It would be really bad because that means standard video card prices are getting inflated.

Titan is a boutique product. It's there for the blink, image and status it grants. That's the reason it doesn't even have a code after GTX, and that is the very same reason a GTX780 won't cost $499 or anything close to it.

But hey, let's imagine that a GTX780 will cost $499. This is what happens:

-Titan sells will automatically go to the toilet. Who would pay 2x the money, to get the same chip with just 20% more performance? Some would, but a lot less than they did. People with business/compute needs wouldn't, for instance. Also, everybody that bought a Titan will feel terribly insulted, and you don't want to piss your highest payers off.

-GTX770. Would you buy it for $399? No, you wouldn't. Why? The GTX780 will offer 50% more vram, and will perform probably in the neighborhood or 15-20% more. So, for a 25% price increase, you get a 15-20% performance increse AND 50% more vram. That seems too good to be truth, since scaling is NEVER linear.

-So, what would the price be for the GTX770? To make any sense at all, if would have to be below $349. At that price point, you are into the GTX660 Ti territory... and you have plunged through half your market-segment.

So, all in all, a GTX780 won't cost $499. It simply can't unless NVIDIA wants to drop all their prices by 20-30%, which they won't do.


Now, lets imagine a different sceneario: GTX780 will cost $599.

-Titan sells go to the toilet, almost the same as before.

-GTX770 would have to be priced at no more than $450 and, even at that price point, the performance increase to the GTX780 will be almost linear, because you not only will get a better chip, with more bandwidth and performance, you also get 50% more ram. Still, lets accept $450 for the GTX770.

-The GTX760 Ti... what do we do? Price it at $350? $300? You will kill everything below it, and there is no refresh for it.

---

All in all, from all the scenarios, the only one that makes any sense, considering the only one moving positions is NVIDIA (if they needed to drop the prices they wouldn't need another series), is to price GTX780 at or above $699. This way, you still make the Titan not that stupid to buy, since it gives you double the ram and some more performance, and you can price the GTX770 without killing everything nor being a stupid decision.

At the end of the day, this ain't even a refresh, but a rebadge. Unless all the rumors are fake, we are getting the GK104 and the GK110 with some simple tweaks on them, nothing too fancy, and nothing that requires such a "crash" into the prices.

PS: your comment stating the GTXx80 is true... but this will be the first time EVER that the next GTXx80 will be outperformed on day one by an existing single-gpu card from the same company. None of the other x80 NVIDIA cards were ever in that situation, none, which makes precisely this situation a unique one.

PSS: the way I see it, NVIDIA doesn't like that the 7970 and 7950 are directly competing to their GTX680 and GTX670, and wants to remedy such situation. So, in order to stabilize the market and counter the bundles and whatnot, they are releasing just a rehash to keep the GTXx80 and the x70 above the 7970 and 7950 respectively. Because they don't need a new chip to do so, they will simply boost frequencies and keep, more or less, the same price/peformance the older products had (GTX680's price will be inherited by the GTX770, and so on), and they will put the GTX780 as untouchable by AMD no matter what they try, whilst keeping the Titan as their "boutique" product.
Edited by prava - 5/21/13 at 8:47pm
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post #904 of 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlhil2 View Post


STOP, just STOP, how dare you, bringing common sense into this price discussion, just STOP!!!mad.gif

How is it common sense to think a GTX 770 will cost more than a GTX 680 does now?  Who would buy a $499 GTX 770 when you can get pretty much the exact same card (GTX 680) for less than $450 (and around $400 on sale)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ha-Nocri View Post

770 is the same as 680 just with higher clocks. Who said 30%? Quote correctly at least. 20-30% better performance, not 30% (but clock-for-clock if will be 30%). We can't know for sure.

Where do you get 20-30%?  The 770 will be about 10% faster then the 680, and pretty much 0% faster clock for clock, since it's the same chip just clocked higher (with faster memory).

post #905 of 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post

Titan is a boutique product. It's there for the blink, image and status it grants. That's the reason it doesn't even have a code after GTX, and that is the very same reason a GTX780 won't cost $499 or anything close to it.

Nvidia marketing reps themselves have said in interviews not to expect Titan to have any relation to normal GTX series pricing, and that it is a "special edition" based on its compute abilities and halo status. I don't think they (or anyone else) much care whether it comes too close to the Titan... they've gotten those sales already, and will get the rest of the ones they'd have gotten anyway because let's face it, the Titan was never a good price-perf buy for gaming, why would those people suddenly look away now? And people who want it for compute/work purposes still will see it as a huge bargain. Of course, marketing reps tend to be well, marketers, but I don't see how it's THAT different than the old x90 cards that always had the higher price tags, to price in relation to.
Edited by GoldenTiger - 5/21/13 at 8:56pm
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post #906 of 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Where do you get 20-30%?  The 770 will be about 10% faster then the 680, and pretty much 0% faster clock for clock, since it's the same chip just clocked higher (with faster memory).
Well, @ default clocks I was probably wrong. It's ~250MHz difference? A lot. But knowing that the Titan's so much ahead of 680 it might still be 20%. We'll see. But clock for clock 780 will destroy 770, unlike 680 vs 670. Anyhow, let's put those percentages aside, we will see soon, but 780 is superior to 770 in every way. I don't think we ever saw such a difference before?!
post #907 of 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post

Titan is a boutique product. It's there for the blink, image and status it grants. That's the reason it doesn't even have a code after GTX, and that is the very same reason a GTX780 won't cost $499 or anything close to it.

But hey, let's imagine that a GTX780 will cost $499. This is what happens:

-Titan sells will automatically go to the toilet. Who would pay 2x the money, to get the same chip with just 20% more performance? Some would, but a lot less than they did. People with business/compute needs wouldn't, for instance. Also, everybody that bought a Titan will feel terribly insulted, and you don't want to piss your highest payers off.

-GTX770. Would you buy it for $399? No, you wouldn't. Why? The GTX780 will offer 50% more vram, and will perform probably in the neighborhood or 15-20% more. So, for a 25% price increase, you get a 15-20% performance increse AND 50% more vram. That seems too good to be truth, since scaling is NEVER linear.

-So, what would the price be for the GTX770? To make any sense at all, if would have to be below $349. At that price point, you are into the GTX660 Ti territory... and you have plunged through half your market-segment.

So, all in all, a GTX780 won't cost $499. It simply can't unless NVIDIA wants to drop all their prices by 20-30%, which they won't do.


Now, lets imagine a different sceneario: GTX780 will cost $599.

-Titan sells go to the toilet, almost the same as before.

-GTX770 would have to be priced at no more than $450 and, even at that price point, the performance increase to the GTX780 will be almost linear, because you not only will get a better chip, with more bandwidth and performance, you also get 50% more ram. Still, lets accept $450 for the GTX770.

-The GTX760 Ti... what do we do? Price it at $350? $300? You will kill everything below it, and there is no refresh for it.

---

All in all, from all the scenarios, the only one that makes any sense, considering the only one moving positions is NVIDIA (if they needed to drop the prices they wouldn't need another series), is to price GTX780 at or above $699. This way, you still make the Titan not that stupid to buy, since it gives you double the ram and some more performance, and you can price the GTX770 without killing everything nor being a stupid decision.

At the end of the day, this ain't even a refresh, but a rebadge. Unless all the rumors are fake, we are getting the GK104 and the GK110 with some simple tweaks on them, nothing too fancy, and nothing that requires such a "crash" into the prices.

PS: your comment stating the GTXx80 is true... but this will be the first time EVER that the next GTXx80 will be outperformed on day one by an existing single-gpu card from the same company. None of the other x80 NVIDIA cards were ever in that situation, none, which makes precisely this situation a unique one.

PSS: the way I see it, NVIDIA doesn't like that the 7970 and 7950 are directly competing to their GTX680 and GTX670, and wants to remedy such situation. So, in order to stabilize the market and counter the bundles and whatnot, they are releasing just a rehash to keep the GTXx80 and the x70 above the 7970 and 7950 respectively. Because they don't need a new chip to do so, they will simply boost frequencies and keep, more or less, the same price/peformance the older products had (GTX680's price will be inherited by the GTX770, and so on), and they will put the GTX780 as untouchable by AMD no matter what they try, whilst keeping the Titan as their "boutique" product.
I know for a fact that, if i hadn't already bought a Titan, and the 780 dropped at "$499.99", i would buy 3 of those, wouldn't even consider a Titan at that price difference! it would be like selling the 680 at $500.00 and the 670 at $250.00, doesn't equate!
Edited by carlhil2 - 5/21/13 at 9:04pm
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post #908 of 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post

Titan is a boutique product. It's there for the blink, image and status it grants. That's the reason it doesn't even have a code after GTX, and that is the very same reason a GTX780 won't cost $499 or anything close to it.

But hey, let's imagine that a GTX780 will cost $499. This is what happens:

-Titan sells will automatically go to the toilet. Who would pay 2x the money, to get the same chip with just 20% more performance? Some would, but a lot less than they did. People with business/compute needs wouldn't, for instance. Also, everybody that bought a Titan will feel terribly insulted, and you don't want to piss your highest payers off.

-GTX770. Would you buy it for $399? No, you wouldn't. Why? The GTX780 will offer 50% more vram, and will perform probably in the neighborhood or 15-20% more. So, for a 25% price increase, you get a 15-20% performance increse AND 50% more vram. That seems too good to be truth, since scaling is NEVER linear.

-So, what would the price be for the GTX770? To make any sense at all, if would have to be below $349. At that price point, you are into the GTX660 Ti territory... and you have plunged through half your market-segment.

So, all in all, a GTX780 won't cost $499. It simply can't unless NVIDIA wants to drop all their prices by 20-30%, which they won't do.


Now, lets imagine a different sceneario: GTX780 will cost $599.

-Titan sells go to the toilet, almost the same as before.

-GTX770 would have to be priced at no more than $450 and, even at that price point, the performance increase to the GTX780 will be almost linear, because you not only will get a better chip, with more bandwidth and performance, you also get 50% more ram. Still, lets accept $450 for the GTX770.

-The GTX760 Ti... what do we do? Price it at $350? $300? You will kill everything below it, and there is no refresh for it.

---

All in all, from all the scenarios, the only one that makes any sense, considering the only one moving positions is NVIDIA (if they needed to drop the prices they wouldn't need another series), is to price GTX780 at or above $699. This way, you still make the Titan not that stupid to buy, since it gives you double the ram and some more performance, and you can price the GTX770 without killing everything nor being a stupid decision.

At the end of the day, this ain't even a refresh, but a rebadge. Unless all the rumors are fake, we are getting the GK104 and the GK110 with some simple tweaks on them, nothing too fancy, and nothing that requires such a "crash" into the prices.

PS: your comment stating the GTXx80 is true... but this will be the first time EVER that the next GTXx80 will be outperformed on day one by an existing single-gpu card from the same company. None of the other x80 NVIDIA cards were ever in that situation, none, which makes precisely this situation a unique one.

PSS: the way I see it, NVIDIA doesn't like that the 7970 and 7950 are directly competing to their GTX680 and GTX670, and wants to remedy such situation. So, in order to stabilize the market and counter the bundles and whatnot, they are releasing just a rehash to keep the GTXx80 and the x70 above the 7970 and 7950 respectively. Because they don't need a new chip to do so, they will simply boost frequencies and keep, more or less, the same price/peformance the older products had (GTX680's price will be inherited by the GTX770, and so on), and they will put the GTX780 as untouchable by AMD no matter what they try, whilst keeping the Titan as their "boutique" product.

And at 600USD + you could buy 2 7950s and beat the crap out of a 780 with money to spare. Isn't the point of going dual graphics having it cost somewhat more, for roughly 70-90% gain? Oh, that's right, it is. If it debuts at 700, you could get two 7970s and....

I think people forget, AMD is still here. If they price too high, people will move ship or buy smaller end products. Without incentive to upgrade for the new, especially with SLI, they offer nothing.

Further more, keeping price set per generation is good business tactics. If we upped the price every iteration for new performance, their would be nobody upgrading period. The whole thought process ruins how the current model works, and it apparently works well for both companies.

PS (since you have an affinity for that) The company doesn't give a rats about the titan's performance, whether or not it is better than an x80 at lauch. How do I know that? If they gave a rats, you wouldn't see the titan released as it is. The 780 isn't to keep AMD off bay either, it's to make money. They can get away with a re-hash, giving more performance with little R&D. People eat up new stuff, for the sake of it being "the latest and greatest". Apple mentality anyone? They have the ability to make better cards and release them, their is NO loss in R&D if they had the titan as their 780 flag. Why's that you say? it's already out, R&D is done. This is pure money, for the sake of making money. So yeah, they can afford a 500-600 launch and not cry about it.
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post #909 of 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlhil2 View Post

I know for a fact that, if i hadn't already bought a Titan, and the 780 dropped at "$499.99", i would buy 3 of those, wouldn't even consider a Titan at that price difference!

They already have most everyone's money who would actually have bought a Titan at $1k... no reason to not grab the $550-600 crowd now, push Titan to 800, and release a 15SMX Titan Ultra soon after. Just my insane ramblings wink.gif.
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post #910 of 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenTiger View Post

They already have most everyone's money who would actually have bought a Titan at $1k... no reason to not grab the $550-600 crowd now, push Titan to 800, and release a 15SMX Titan Ultra soon after. Just my WISHFUL ramblings wink.gif.
FIXED!
8Ball
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The Black Cube
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WD Mushkin Chronos DX 120gb Mushkin Chronos DX 60GB Samsung 840 Pro 256GB 
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Intel 750 Series 400GB  intel 730 480GB Samsung DVDWBD SH-B083L XSPC RayStorm w/Alphacool NexXxoS Monsta 420mm... 
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Windows 10 Pro Sammy U28D590D Monitor Logitech G710 Seasonic SS-1250XM X-Series ATX PC Power Supply 
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Intel Core i7-5557U Kingston HyperX Impact Black 16GB Kit (2x8GB) 1... Samsung 840 Pro 256GB Windows 10 Pro/Remix OS w/Nova Launcher Dual Boot 
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GeChic 1502i 15.6" 1080p IPS Portable Touchscre... 
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8Ball
(30 items)
 
 
The Black Cube
(11 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
5960X @4.7@1.300v Asus X99 Deluxe II nVIDIA GTX Titan XP  Gskill TridentZ 3000 cas 14 4x8 GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
WD Mushkin Chronos DX 120gb Mushkin Chronos DX 60GB Samsung 840 Pro 256GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Intel 750 Series 400GB  intel 730 480GB Samsung DVDWBD SH-B083L XSPC RayStorm w/Alphacool NexXxoS Monsta 420mm... 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Pro Sammy U28D590D Monitor Logitech G710 Seasonic SS-1250XM X-Series ATX PC Power Supply 
CaseMouseAudioAudio
Corsair 900D Logitech G502 Aune S16 Hifi DIY 32bit / 384khz Dsd128 Fifo Fu... MPD18 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
xDuoo XD-05 Jotunheim AKG Q's SoundMAGIC HP200  
AudioAudioAudioAudio
SoundMAGIC HP150  Sennheiser HD 600 JVC HA-SZ2000  Pioneer Pro DJ DDJ-SB2 DJ Controller 
OtherOther
CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD PFC Sinewave UPS 1500VA... Logitech G13 
CPURAMHard DriveOS
Intel Core i7-5557U Kingston HyperX Impact Black 16GB Kit (2x8GB) 1... Samsung 840 Pro 256GB Windows 10 Pro/Remix OS w/Nova Launcher Dual Boot 
Monitor
GeChic 1502i 15.6" 1080p IPS Portable Touchscre... 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4790K@4.6@1.200v Asus Z97M-PLUS  EVGA GTX 750ti Corsair Vengence 1600 LP 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 840 Pro Mushkin  XSPC Photon 170 Glass Reservoir / D5 Pump Combo  Windows 8.1 Pro 
MonitorPowerCase
Samsung U28D590D 4K EVGA G2 850W Fractal Design Node 804 
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